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Posts
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Another thing to consider, with a bit less number crunching, is that by the time a brute reaches the same kind of resistances the tank has, it is rather trivial anyway because you have enough buffs for the team you probably don't even need anyone to take the tanking role.
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You know that you're not meant to come within 300 meters of my home, the court order still stands.
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Just to let you know, in i19 Fitness is free...
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I'm not sure you'll find a "which is the best" answer, but more likely you'll find "this is what the set is good at". Those three have all got their own individual benefits and drawbacks.
Dark Melee is fairly short on AOE damage. I wouldn't suggest it if you want to be in big teams and want to feel like you are contributing lots of damage. It does rather nice single target damage when it has a lot of recharge.
Super Strength has Foot Stomp, Rage and KO Blow which make it feel very smashyIt does have a crash at the end of Rage which some people don't like.
Stone Melee has great damage but is also very heavy on endurance. I'd suggest paring it with an armour set that has some tools to manage that. -
For new players, it has to be just a choice between Invulnerability and Willpower. I'd settle on either, both are great and very functional with minimal investment.
I just levelled my Electric Armour tank to 39 and have my resistances all slotted out, with Tough, and she is very very squishy. Depressingly so -
Quote:My disagreement is in having both available.And this is different than defense cap how?
Yes, defense CAP gets to avoid everything and crumbles at defense debuffs. Being at the Resistance cap is nice and all, but you're still going to get hit by every -to hit, -rech, -speed, -def, blind, etc, they throw your way. Against Carnies, Malta, Arachnos, Vanguard, Cimerorans, and others, it is just plain better to not get hit in the first place.
The way I see it, it breaks even. Any argument I've seen against more resistance bonuses fall apart because defense bonuses already do it.
To take a set that uses both: Invul, I'd still go for defense. My fire tank would love if he could stack worthwhile resistances to his armors...
I still stand behind my argument that getting decent resistance values should be as easy as defense, even if it means nerfing the defense IOs.
It sucks that no matter my powersets, the plan for becoming tougher is always MORE DEFENSE!
I'd like to have options. With the IO investment needed, it would be impossible to be capped to both outside of outliers. Squshies would have to pick a side, and for them defense would still be better.
(I do acknowledge that Resistance having innate Resistance debuff does throw a monkey wrench into my argument. On the other hand, I do think -defense in mobs is way overused.) -
I like that squishy characters can get to become reasonably tougher than what was possible before. I just don't want to see every defence (resistance/defence/etc) being able to be capped.
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Quote:I can't really agree with this... imagine how many tanks could effortless cap their resistances to a lot of different things (or Brutes). People could just be so ridiculously tough it would be unreasonable.Getting 20% resistance to S/L through IOs should be as trivial as getting 10% defense to S/L.
Most AT cap at 75-85% resistance, whereas defense caps at 45% for all. So defense still wins.
Defense cracks under defense debuffs, Resistance gets hit by every debuff thrown at them. I'd call that even. -
Quote:It's a matter of scale to me... 15.6% resistance is negligable if I am intending on tanking something, whereas 40%+ defence is realistically attainable and does a whole lot more. I just don't think there's enough resistance sets to make it particularly useful (though when I look at the gladiator PVP set, it makes me want them so I could get some builds from 80% resistance to the 90% cap, which is verrrrry niceMy second posted build, in the thread I made in this same forum, has at least 15.6% resistance to all but psionic on top of capped defense to ALL positions, also fairly high regen and health.
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Quote:Resistance sets suffer cascading defence in a very similar way as the defence sets. I did indeed claim mobs hit with a 50% chance (variable depending on their level and status - ie minion / boss etc.).Wait... that should be under defense, not resistance. Resistance inherently resists resistance debuffs and further debuffs are calculated based on the original resistance, not the debuffed. Defense, when debuffed, gives enemies an increased chance to hit which allows more defense debuffs to get through. I would call defense the set that is subject to cascading failure, unless you are super reflexes and have 100% defense debuff resistance.
You also claim mobs with a 50% chance to hit will hit twice as often. This is not really possible unless some of them eat yellows and break game code.
It is much easier to soft-cap a couple defenses (smashing and lethal) on a resistance set than it is to get anywhere near the resistance cap on a defense set.
If you want the best survivability, stone armor offers both defense and resistance in granite armor. If you just want an easy time in most content, defense sets start to feel invincible earlier in the game than resistance sets.
When a resistance set is hit by defence debuff, they generally have no resistance to it, and so the enemy goes from hitting 1/2 the time to hitting 19/20 times. Ie: almost twice the hits, hence twice the damage. No magic there, no "game code breaking" or "inspiration eating minions", just people don't consider that defence debuffs aren't much fun for a resistance set too, because they don't appreciate that people missing is still doing something (it accounts for almost HALF your mitigation!). -
Your numbers make me lol. You are comparing someone who has a 5% chance to hit vs defence with a resistance set that dies in 4 hits? What kind of crappy resistance set is that?
Why don't you make a real example where it takes 50, 100 or 500 hits to take down the resistance set, like is the actual reality of the game. -
Defence:
-Main benefit is that a missed attack doesn't apply its secondary effects. This is huge to me. It essentially gives a debuff resistance to everything because it is rather rare that the enemy has toggles to use on you.
-Subject to more randomness than Resistance. A few lucky hits can seriously threaten your life or ill you outright.
-Variably subject to cascading defence failures. On a well built SR, it's going to take a lot to eventuate this - probably you are dead before it happens. On some others without so much defence debuff resistance, it's much more of a problem.
Resistance:
-Significantly more 'reliable' in its expectations. Damage is mitigated by a certain amount and that is basically the final rule on it.
-Is subject to secondary effects and must rely on other debuff resistances inherent to the power tree. Without that kind of debuff resistance, mobs that use these attacks can be deadly.
-Can be subject to cascading defence failures. In fact, will *always* be subject to them. Against mobs with a 50% chance to hit, they will almost immediately be taking double the hits from them.
A mix of the two?
-It is far, FAR easier to have a resistance build and then get IOs for defence, and the defence can be made to be very appreciable. In fact it is basically impossible for a pure defence build to find enough resistance to truly feel the effect.
-There is a general weakness in that cascading defence will still hurt, and in enough numbers/frequency you will quickly revert to a 95% chance of being hit.
-However in the above instance, it is not common to find mobs that both provide defence debuffs as well as other life threatening debuffs in the same groups. This limitation means that in general instances, you can either ignore a lot of debuffs through defence, or you can lose your defence but not have to face the debuffs anyway.
Finally...
-All the examples in these threads are extremely 'one dimensional'. There are very very few builds that are pure defence or pure resistance (even SR has scaling defences, and I can't think of any 'pure' resistance build that doesn't have regen or a heal). -
Quote:See my previous post about +30% scourge.One other thing to consdier, slotting will typically dilute the effects of vigilance. Damage buffs don't multiply off eachother (to multiply damage buffs you need resistance debuffs) and that 30% boost from vigilance is going to apply to base damage. By time an attack is slotted with SOs you have (rounding to a nice round number) about 100% in damage buff from your enhancements to that attack. Assuming this boost you have:
Defenders: 65*2.3 (1.0 base + 1.0 SOs + .3 vigilance) = 149.5
Corruptors: 75*2 = 150
Or, almost exactly the same base solo damage. At this point it pretty much becomes a race between the defender's higher buff/debuff numbers and the corruptor's scourge to see who takes the top damage spot. While it is, to the best of my knowledge, flat out impossible for a solo character to -res cap an enemy this is probably the best way for defenders to pull ahead of corruptor damage. Damage buffs favor the defender too but there is a significant "risk" in the damage race that a kineticist (the only set with appreciable self +dam) defender will hit their damage cap (with SOs and Vigilance covering 130% it's not too hard to FS your way there) at which point they stop gaining from damage buffs while a corruptor still has another 100% to go. Like was mentioned earlier, a corruptor at their damage cap wins, period. At damage cap the def deals 325 damage while the corruptor deals 450. At that point even if they have sonic blast as a secondary to try and make up the difference they would have to put out about a -130% debuff to overcome the corruptors damage (assuming the corruptor is also using the same debuff chain) and quite frankly I doubt thats possible for a solo defender.
There needs to be a lot of debuffs to make up an extra 30% on top of everything. -
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Quote:It's always been easy.Part of me feels its a bit of a mistake. I already have non tank toons that have max defenses. Now every toon will have much better defenses. Those toons that are Defense capped already will be doing more DPS. I already have run on some decent teams that many where defense capped in which no tank was needed. I think it will make tanks and brute needed even less. I think scrappers will win out since they can with certain sets be defensed capped and deal even more DPS. Pretty much a tank that deals more damage.
There used to be a time when the game had a certain model. Meaning a players should be able to handle 3 minions or 1 LT and 1 minion. But as I read in a Q&A one time, when one of the devs where asked what the current model was. The answer they gave as fun, that they look at what is fun for the player. It sounds great but it also becomes less challenging. I get more of a challenge sometimes out of figuring out how to get a build defense capped then doing some of these missions. Or seeing how fast we can do a SF or TF..
Don't hate the game, I think its fun. But it was more challenging when you relied on a tank a bit more and everyone else had a part to deal with. Now the lines of blurred and you have Scrappers, Dominators, and even some Trap set Defenders / Corruptors tanking. -
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Oh, I just noticed in the numbers the following:
T9 of Battle Axe does more damage (10) but hits 5 instead of 10 and has a chance it won't knockdown.
T8 of Battle Axe does more damage (20) but a slightly narrower (20 degree instead of 45 degree) cone.
On the basis of the T9 (10 targets is beautiful) I'd probably favour WM. The damage is too close to call but the extra targets and mitigation is fantastic.
I stand corrected, sorry. Axe has better base damage, WM probably is better overall. I'd still say go with what you think looks better -
Quote:Can't say I agree with much of that at all. Base damage is exactly the same on all but two, and for those the AOE from Axe is in fact better than the AOE on WM, so a case could be made that Axe is better for damage. Clobber has excellent damage on WM and on a very short cast time, so that's the case for why WM is beter.Key differences, war mace has much higher percentage chance to knock, and smashing damage is vastly less resisted than lethal. Mace's powers also do a bit more damage base.
Mace also has far more customization.
War mace if actually very much superior to axe.
Which makes be sad, because I think maces suck and I want a big brutal axe to kill things with.
The knockup numbers are pretty much the same. On a few attacks WM has stun instead of knockup, and on those attacks the % chance of stun is lower than the % chance of knockup on the equivalent Axe attack. I'd generally prefer knockup over stun because knockup/knockdown works more consistently against lieutenants/bosses/etc.
Numbers are here:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...lee.Battle_Axe
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Melee.War_Mace
I play War Mace so typically I would defend the set. It's great, but really Battle Axe is so close it isn't funny. -
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I'd echo another "Don't go for Regen" on a WP character. The set bonuses are truly miniscule (on my WP tank who has a bit over 3200 hp, many of the regen bonuses are less than 1hp/sec which is, essentially, nothing) but the benefits of good slotting for defence or recharge are so much more. I say recharge because with good recharge you can have attacks that provide active mitigation by knockdown/stun, for instance.
To repeat... lots of slots for 1 hp/s each? No... bad. Not worth it.
As for the Rage crash, the effect of -defence reads like this:
•Defense -0.2 for 10s (after 120 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
The important part is "Effect does not stack from same caster". When you activate it a second time, it reapplies this effect and overrides the original. Therefore, it will wait another 120 seconds before it will apply the defence debuff. Again, if you activate Rage during this 120 seconds, it will use the most recent effect to calculate when next to debuff you, as they don't stack. -
They are almost identical. Battle Axe has pure knockdown/knockup while War Mace has a mix of stun and knockdown/knockup. The attacks are nearly mirror images of one another in terms of damage/targetting/etc.
I would take whichever one you think looks better. -
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Make a hybrid mace/gun that stops you from weapon swapping.
k it might look silly but it sure would be nice.