Bright Shadow
-
Posts
1183 -
Joined
-
Quote:Can you say exaggeration?Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
These forums are so crazy. Instead of everyone complaining about every little thing, like most MMO forums, everyone defends everything the devs do so vehemently that they are unwilling to see things from anyone else's perspective. It's a nice change of pace, the positivity and support for the devs, I mean, but it gets annoying in situations like this, where it is oft taken to the extreme.
I am just envisioning a scenario. Late 2010, Hero Con. Going Rogue was a massive success, so work begins on another expansion. Positron gets up on stage: "We're proud to announce City of Heroes: Bag of Crap as our next paid expansion. New features include poo-themed costumes and a power that lets you leave a sack of dog crap at the foot of a door when you click on it. This dog crap will summon enemies from the door, who then step in the crap and suffer debilitating knockdown and damage resistance debuff effects. We intend for this to replace all instanced missions. City of Heroes: Bag of Crap will retail for $19.95 and will be released around Q3 2011." Those in attendance at Hero Con go wild, and people start reserving Poo-themed names on their servers, waiting for the expansion to be released. People who have played the game since launch head to the forums to express their disappointment with the obviously ridiculous new expansion that was just announced, and are neg-repped to death and shot down by the forum community, who believe that anyone who doesn't absolutely love everything about City of Heroes: Bag of Crap is irrelevant and their opinion, invalidated.
Funny as that is, it's not that hard to believe for someone who's been lurking these forums for a long time...
Go look it up in a dictionary! It's a fun word! Exaggeration! -
Quote:...no, more like apples and oranges. CoV was an entirely independent game at the time it was announced. CoH: GR is an expansion.Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
...Because they're both paid expansions for the same game? Why wouldn't anyone compare them? Apples and apples.
-
This thread is just all over the place in the topic spectrum...
-
Quote:Do such mythical creatures even exist?! I thought those were Google Bots on Nicholas Cage's fan site...Originally Posted by Frosticus
Well, unless you are a fan of Nicolas Cage
-
So wait...why are markets disjoint again?!
-
Quote:Hm. Interesting point. You're right. The universal value of each inspiration can not go higher than the vendor/AE price. You can only carry a limited amount...Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I dig what you say here, but consider something.
For inspirations to have cross-market value, they need to attain value in relation to influence/infamy. I don't think they can, because we can procure them cheaply (AE tickets), but we cannot carry them in bulk (Set inventory size). What this means is, We either need to inspirations to be attainable in bulk, so as to offset their ability to be easily procured, or they need to increase in value to be useful as a means of exchanging influence, which cannot happen while they are so easy to procure.
In short, if inspiration cannot be used to represent large amounts of influence/infamy, will it still be used?
But what about Large Inspirations? And I do know there are people who willing to empty and re-fill their inspiration trays 50 times in a row to do what they want. Remember when we had the ridiculously low infamy trade cap? :P
But you're right. Still though, I want a valid source for this news. -
Quote:Well, it wouldn't bring market to an apocalypse. I'm saying it'd simply ruin the market structure as a disjoint system. It's fully stable otherwise.Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Okay, so, I'm not an ebil marketeer, and most of this seems more than a little abstract to me. However, if I read what you're saying right, it looks to be that your argument is that taking two objects that were previously exclusive, and making them partially interinfluencial, will lead through a string of consequences that ultimately unhinge the market's structure?
I'm trying not to set up a straw man, but it seems that if something like Inspirations, which are already available AE store for a mere one ticket, were going to wreck the market, we'd have seen signs of it somewhere else previously. If systems don't suddenly develop breaking points, but rather, have them exposed, then it would seem we'd have seen ramifications of this somewhere else.
But, as I've taken pains to stress, I'm not knowledgeable on any of this. Please, educate me.
And it's not the question of how worthless or valuable inspirations are at the moment.
The issue is, if inspiration cross-trading becomes a reality, over time, Inspirations will be used as a universal currency. They have one thing special that neither infamy, nor influence have: ability to go to both red and blue side. They can be used as a method to transfer infamy over to blue side, and transfer influence over to red side. If this happens, there is no point in keeping markets disjoint anymore. -
Quote:That's not the issue.Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Er, how? Inspirations, I should think, make up a fairly small part of the daily traffic at Wentworth's and Big Truck Discount.
As of now, there is no way at all to convert infamy to influence. The supply and demand on the blue side is completely separate from the red side. Infamy never crosses to blue side, and influence never crosses to red side. The total amount of influence on both sides are completely independent on one another.
Now, the moment a SINGLE item defies that rule, the entire market would lose this structure. How?
By using that items to 'transfer' infamy to blue side, or influence to red side. I can simply buy inspiration from blue side, decrease the supply on blue side, and decrease my own influence. Then I transfer all inspirations to red side. I sell them back to the market on red side, increasing the supply of red side inspirations, and increasing my own infamy. I haven't actually EARNED any inspirations on either side. I have manipulated the market of BOTH sides without the contribution of ANYONE else. See the flaw?
Now, I'm not saying this is actually wrong and should not be done. I'm in favor of market merging. But considering how developers are against market merging, this IS a flaw.
Sure, inspirations aren't significant to market right now, but if cross-trading of inspirations is true, then they will be used as a form of universal currency in the market that can go on either side.
The only way to allow inspiration cross-trading and keep markets disjoint is to remove inspirations from the markets entirely. -
Can anyone please confirm the source of the point about inspiration cross trading? I'm very skeptical on this.
Cause this would make separation of markets pointless. -
I think the more people point that video are certainly art forms, Coyote would just sink deeper into their "I'm not falling for the groupthink!" mentality.
And regarding Frost's response to my post:
Yes, you'd be right. But the difference between crying praise and crying doom is that crying praise does not harm to the community and the game we love, but crying doom does. That is purely my opinion, however. Feel free to disagree! -
Quote:Yup. And I giggled at "titbits".Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The two "10%" ones were mention in the hero con GR info thread, but I'd not heard about then cross-faction insps trading - it'll make ITFs a little easier
-
Quote:It's not a crime to be disappointed by GR. But it is unfair to judge it so early and cry doom.Originally Posted by Slashman
Ok...I'm not quite sure what else could be added here with regards to art and artforms. So I'll just skip all that and get back to the topic at hand.
I don't think its a crime for someone to say they are disappointed by what was announced at Hero-Con.
In a sense I was disappointed. Maybe not so much by what they announced, because I love Dual Pistols and I think I'll love Demon Summoning along with the graphics upgrade. I was disappointed by not knowing more.
I know marketing is keeping a tight reign on things and that some of that is also likely due to certain things not being nailed down as final etc. Still, I'd like to know what we're getting beyond 1 - 20 levels of content and side switching.
I think I may feel much less disappointed because I like the stuff they have announced, but I'm hopeful for much more.
I think this part of the OP's post is what I felt like I most agree with.
A lot of those things are even more important to me, especially the expanded gameplay and mission types. So in a sense I can't really get too angry at the OP. Everyone's mileage varies.
Again. You're confusing whether or not something is an art with whether or not you like the art.Quote:Originally Posted by QuiJon
I actually agree with this on the same plane of thinking where i would argue not all movies are art either. But unfortunately its a subjective process.
Like i can watch Transformers and i dont care how much thought or design were put into it, i cant see a flaming turd like that movie as art. However a movie like star wars or a tv show like star trek, i could totally see justifiable as being art. They changed how people saw scifi, they changed the way movies were made, and even if they borrowed from other sources, IMO they are art.
Games are the same way, i can see something like "The Force Unleashed" or KOTOR and say its art, its intended to pull in the player and inspire choices, and consequences and to imerse someone in an experience. Where i see something like Halo where its basicly linear and shoot and duck and say as nice and well polished as the games are, they really dont qualify to me as art. They are just a shooter and do nothing new, and invoke no emotional response in me what so ever.
As I said, sadly, this is a VERY common misconception.
It doesn't matter that you think Transformers was terrible. A whole lot of people think it was great. Transformers, as a movie, is an art. It maybe a terrible art in your mind, and mine, but it's a fantastic piece of art in someone else's. For something to be considered art, it doesn't have to be 'good'.
Same goes for Halo. Every single person on the team of developers who contributed to Halo's visuals, story line, and game atmosphere is an artist. Whether or not they're good artists has nothing to do with Halo's classification as an art. -
Arcanaville wins an internet once again!
-
Quote:Even the person whose argument you were defending is against your earlier point. xDOriginally Posted by MageX
One day I'll be president. Video games make time go faster.
-
Quote:...it amazes me how you, with that mindset, play a video game.Originally Posted by MageX
Ingame desing, the theory of practicality, and sex, why whales can't fly, the influence of modern woman's farts upon the ozone layer, why atoms are so small and how their ego is so big, lady gaga and her peepee. As long as there's millions in it people will dedicate most of their life to it. They already dedicated years for seedless fruit and a comercial verion of the astronaut pen, cause pencils just weren't enough.
[/off topic] -
Quote:You have to try a lot harder than that to offend me, hun.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
LOL! No hard feelings then? I ain't a complete *******, y'know!
I have more serious stuff in life to worry than whether or not you think video games are an art or not. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Sure! Why not? I know where you're going with it!
'Cause then that means that trolling is also an artform. Dare I say that it is performance art!
And some people are really, really good at it. ;D
-
Quote:Yes, pornography is an art. So is sex.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Wow, that sure sounds a lot like certain definitions of pornography then!
Wait! So that means...
It has creativity.
Do you really wanna debate this here? -
Quote:I like how you're justifying everything you're saying by adding a "...I just don't think video games are an art NOW!" at the end of every argument.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I think you missed the part where I said I think videogames are approaching a status of "artform". I just don't think it's really there yet and to insist that it is is premature.
And come to think of it, this wasn't the original argument now, was it? I've led you all down a spectacular tangent! My bad, I guess.
People have made sure to note there's plenty of art done for this game, as if I had never noticed it before, haha. You will also note that I actually had nothing bad to say about the art in the game, as I was talking about the game's mechanics (i.e. its rules).
Video games have been, are, and will always be art forms.
It has nothing to do with age of the industry. Pong was one of the earliest forms of this art. -
Quote:...I really have no idea what to say to that...Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
There are people who make a living specifically by pontificating on the subject of game design?
I'm in the wrong racket. -
Quote:It already does. We've seen a small fraction of them. Where've you been?Originally Posted by MageX
...but for me it has to bring something else other than graphics for high ends computers.
-
Quote:Because it is composed of stories, visuals, and music.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Well see, the difference is that in a song, or a painting or a movie, art is used to convey a message of some kind; often personal, sometimes politcial, but always very important. At least to the person who made it.
Now videogames came from a different angle from that. The main point of a game was not to invoke an emotion or convey an important message. It was something else entirely. I'll admit that with videogames, it has already begun moving away from that. But like I was trying to say before, I don't think it's exactly there yet.
Now a good analogy for us here might be in comic books. They were certainly not considered to be serious art to any degree! But I'm certain anyone who's read them in the last 30 or 40 years would beg to differ.
Now here we got an MMO that embraces the spirit of the superhero genre that has been the mainstay of comic books for so long. Just one look in the thread about Going Rogue on the heated philosophical discussions over the true meaning of morality will show that the makers of this game have kind of touched on something. I don't know if that's really by design or not, or if us posters have just gone off on some wild tangent!
A game like this one is enteraining to be sure, there are no doubts there! But what's is ultimate message? Good always triumphs over evil? Be careful what you wish for? Sacrifices must sometimes be made for the greater good?
If you think this game is art, I'd like to know why you think so. No trite or sarcastic responses, pretty please. I'm quite serious. Why do you think it is? My mind is certainly open to the possibility.
All of those elements are already considered forms of art by the arbitrary hypothetical standards you seem to be following.
That's the simplest reason why I think City of Heroes is an art along with every other video game. It certainly isn't the only reason. But I think it is enough to justify the cause. -
Quote:Exactly.Originally Posted by Lunch_Box
Because, video games being a form of art is a fact. You seem to debate how good the art is, which is a different discussion entirely.
Many people fall into a misconception that just because an art form does not appeal to their tastes, it is not art.
That is a very, very wrong, yet sadly very, very common thought process. -
Quote:...how am I pulling a straw man? xDOriginally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Nice spin in the last sentence, but I think you missed the part where I'd previously posted in this thread that I actually like the new graphics upgrade. I don't know where you got that I didn't.
At either rate, you're quickly starting to build up a straw-man here, and coupled with your semantic arguments, I'd say that indeed trying to talk with you is very pointless!
I had no idea that you didn't think the graphics upgrade is bad. That was my mistake. And to be quite honest, my target is not YOU. It's the people who are criticizing CoH: GR simply because it has a large graphical update and people believe that has wasted developer resources. -
Quote:Woot!Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
I don't know how to respond to this post other than to disagree as vehemently as one can disagree with another human being.