BrandX
-
Posts
8933 -
Joined
-
Quote:What I meant by original was in the end, Moe was the only original StoogeOriginally Posted by Nericus
Moe the only original thing about the Stooges? Uhmmmm.....
As to whether this movie is something that Moe, Larry and Curly would have wanted, well they always wanted big screen movies and they did make some back in the DeRita days.
As to whether the Stooges think this movie will be any good....we may never know.
Some dumbing down a.k.a. censoring of what they do is to be expected.
So three new people taking up the Stooges name isn't a bad thing.
-
Quote:Next question, how much damage are these two sets dishing out in DPS when reaching the damage cap?Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Super Strength
Kinetic Melee -
Quote:I read the books that came with the game back in i3? Tankers, high survival, low damage. You can solo, but you'll be slow.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Wrong. It was a mechanic the the lead designer of the game said Tankers were going to get.
How do you know what the intention of Tankers is, and that it doesn't include damage?
The official AT description suggests damage is an important part of the equation. It calls Tankers "devastating hand to hand combatants" who "dish out all sorts of damage". The same lead designer from above said of the mechanic that became Fury "This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose."
Two official sources that are pretty clear the intent of Tankers was to reflect comic book Tankers and to, in part, have formidable offensive capabilities. If the lead designer of the game who was there when they created Tankers said it, what more proof do you need?
.
that was the intent, was it not?
Note, I'm not against a raise to the damage cap, though I'm not sure I agree it needs to be to such an extent to rival brutes.
But I havent seen the question answered, what are the tankers you have that reach the damage cap all on their own? -
Quote:I thought this too. But I'd make them more like the Widows/Soldiers in branching to vary them up.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm getting to the point where I think they should merge Tankers and Brutes and Scrappers and Stalkers. Actually I was at that point a few years ago, but I'm thinking that it makes sense now!
-
Quote:But what you want out of Tankers is different than what the intention of Tankers is.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, it's not.
The devs just buffed Stalkers because they had issues. They didn't tell people to roll Scrappers.
I have several Tankers with years of commitment put into them. I also have several Brutes. I have a couple Scrappers, but only one Stalker. Having played all side of the melee argument, it's my opinion the game penalizes Tankers unfairly in some ways, especially compared to Brutes. Namely, the issues I have explained many times about defensive and offensive potential. Given the development history of Tankers, Fury being developed for them but hijacked for Brutes, I feel that, yes, Tankers are owed something. Furthermore, they don't reasonably reflect their comic counterparts as well as all of the other melee ATs do (and in a comic book superhero game that DOES matter). They also don't line up with their official description when it comes to "dishing out all kinds of damage" and being "devastating hand to hand" combatants. And I don't care if that description is old; the other melee ATs live up theirs, if not exceed them, and the fact that Tankers don't and haven't for so long just makes it worse, not more excusable.
And, what angers me the most, is that so many people took BandX's advice. They gave up on trying to get Tankers fixed and defected to Brutes both when CoV launched and when side switching became a reality. Well I still give a damn, even if the people who used to support Tanker reform took off. So, if I have to be the diehard holdout, call me Captain Ahab.
That's kind of you, but really, I don't care about convincing anyone at this point. If I annoy you, again, that's why we have an Ignore feature.
.
And Fury was never created for Tankers. It was an idea posted on the forums for them, that was used for Brutes.
The idea for Tankers is higher defense. You say that higher defense is pointless.
Go play with SO's see if you see a difference in survival (you should, I know I notice a difference).
But yes your right, Brutes CAN get themselves up to high enough levels of survival not to worry.
But that's through set bonuses and proper power picks. So, why not go about trying to get more +DMG bonuses, Procs, made, so you can give Tankers more +DMG opportunities.
Which also gives other ATs the ability to sacrifice getting up to "just enough survival" for "Ooooo MORE DAMAGE!"
And what Stalkers lacked was damage. That's why they got the buff they did.
Survival Scale
Tanker -> Brute -> Scrapper -> Stalker
DPS Scale
Stalker -> Scrapper -> Brute -> Tanker
That's how it should be. There is of course some edge cases that throw this all off.
+DMG bonuses for Scrappers, Gloom for Brutes, Fury effecting DMG Auras.
But before the Stalker changes, Stalkers were only above Tankers in damage, and still the least survivable of the melee ATs.
Tankers maintain the higher survival with SOs and even equal IO builds due to higher base resists and higher HP totals.
Of course, some Defense sets make the higher resists less of a thing (SR). -
Quote:I thinkt he problem isn't the devs or Tankers, the problem seems to be you.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
It's a silly reply to what I thought was a silly suggestion. The developers are well aware of what I have to say about Tankers. As I said in an earlier post, they either don't care or they don't have the time/resources to do anything about it. Neither of those situations are going to stop me from trying to get the issues with Tankers looked at, especially until there's an actual commitment by the devs to do something. Because if I don't, who will? If it annoys you, consider it a form of civil disobedience. You know what you can do to help make it stop.
The original purpose of this thread was pretty much rescinded by the OP.There was nothing to "take over". Since then, the thread evolved into a general discussion of melee balance as a whole, of which Tankers and their issues are a part of.
Lastly, if you really don't like what I have to say or pictures (that you think shouldn't be allowed in a visual medium for some reason :\ ), there's an Ignore feature for that very purpose.
.
Everything you say you want, you say you can get from the Brute AT. If Brutes can surviva the 4/8 difficulty just as easy as Tankers, which is what you say, and lay waste to enemies faster, and that's everything you want, why aren't you rolling a Brute?
Before Freedom (though with Going Rogue you could of done it at lvl 20) I could understand it, but now, you can stay blueside and roll that Brute.
The fact that they rely on Fury shouldn't be a problem since you claim that Brutes stole it from Tankers.
So, everything you want is found in the Brute AT. And outside of Martial Arts, Ice Melee, and Ice Armor they share most of the sets. -
Quote:Roll a Brute.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
In my opinion, the devs apparent views on Tanker design is pretty crappy.
They let Brutes share the same survivability caps as them, but Tanker damage caps have to be way lower. Solo, Scrapper and Brute survivability is plenty adequate, enough that they're the best soloing ATs in the game, that's a fact, yet Tankers are punished with less damage for having more survivability than that, even when it's superfluous. On teams, the devs let defensive buffs and heals get handed out like candy to Scrappers and Brutes, and on top of that they get the heat taken off of them by Tankers. The result: they see very little downside, solo or teamed, to not being as tough out of the box as Tankers.
If that wasn't enough, add some IOs so Scrappers and Brutes can softcap their defense and while we're at it, Barrier, Rebirth and level shifts. So Brutes and Scrappers get tougher and tougher relative to all enemies in the game, don't really give up any damage for it, and keep the same damage advantage relative to Tankers. So, when it comes to the melee ATs, really only Tankers have to trade damage for their survival. I don't find that fair, and if the devs do, that only supports my assertion that they threw Tankers under the bus years ago.
. -
Quote:Actually, I think this lives up to exactly what the Stooges did.Originally Posted by Green_Watch
My thoughts on this can be summed up by quoting Charlie Brown, "AUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!"
I wish Hollywood would get some original ideas so they can stop !$#%!$%!ing up the classics.
You're all "Auuugh! Come up with something original! Don't mess with the classics!"
When in the end, the only thing original about the Stooges was Moe!
The comment shouldn't be "Auuuuugh!" it should be "I hope this lives up the Three Stooges name!"
This movie being made is exactly what the original would of wanted done. Now whether or not they think (or stooges fans) it's any good is another story.
Personally, I think it's shaping up to be a good Three Stooges film, even though they're dumbing them a bit. -
I was hitting over 200 DPS with KM without any +DMG Alpha or Interface Proc damage, and that wasn't witht he best attack chain either.
I'd guess with BU becoming an almost constant +80% damage increase, it'd put KM ahead. It can't slot -Resist Procs, but it's not purely smashing damage either. -
Havent skipped it yet.
-
May you draw in comfort!
-
Quote:Sooo...Tankers are broken?Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
To get Tankers fixed, yeah, I'll fight the world. "Hurr!" /em taunt
. -
Quote:And if we go with the idea of Cap being a tanker it goes along with the idea of a low damage Tanker to go with Blob! that's two tankers who can't destroy the world! \o/Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That nearly indestructible shield tells me otherwise.
I'm reminded of a moment in the comics (forget the issue) where he puts spider-man behind him and ducks behind the shield while the Hulk pounds away at it.
To me Captain America and that shield are inseparable as a comic character.
I say Tank all the way. -
Quote:Well yeah Sam. It doesn't take long for people to realize there's no need to be concerned about ScrappersOriginally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Just checking since I'm only seeing about half the conversation: Am I right to observe that this has become essentially "Johnny Butane vs. the World?"
-
Quote:Nope. QR was replaced by Hide.Originally Posted by Abyssus
Quick question about /wp on stalkers, do they still get QR? Looks like they don't but i've never heard anyone mention it so maybe it got rolled into another power?
-
Quote:You realize those Brutes who survive 4/8 are usually surving some of the easiest enemies for them to survive, right?Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Unless you're a Brute, then you can get Barrier and not have to give up anything.
I can show you many Brutes who's survivability is high enough it doesn't matter that it's lower than a Tanker for 90% of the content in the game and who retain way better damage then them regardless.
Of course not! That's the point. That's because they're not set so ridiculously low, like a Tanker's. One Kin shouldn't ram Tankers into their damage cap. A Kin or few SoAs in your league shouldn't make Build Up, Rage or Leadership toggles much less relevant, if not irrelevant.
You still can't justify why a Brute should have as much survivability potential as a Tanker but way more damage potential, can you?
.
Surving a 4/8 Fire Farm with a Fire Brute is not impressive
Roll up more Fire Armor tankers! Burn, Fiery Embrace...those add up the damage...now take Gloom! Just like Brutes, Gloom helps with your DPS.
Your tanker just got up there!
Want to compare Tankers to other ATs based purely on numbers...that IO Fire Armor/ELM Tanker is dishing out the damage while surving 4/8 content, while that Energy Melee/Stone Armor is widdling away at enemies slowly! -
Quote:They do meet the expectations of comic book tankers!Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I'm far past trying to convince the devs of anything. They're either fully aware if the problem and don't care about it, or don't have the time/resources to address it. To the latter, five years on, patience is running a little short. To the former, there's no point in trying to even be reasonable.
There's been some talk about looking at Tankers I'm very skeptical given their collective past treatment of the AT. I think that's justified. If you don't, fair enough.
I think wanting the damage cap adjusted and there to stop being a double standard with the melee ATs is very reasonable.
I also want for Tankers to meet the same expectations set by their comic Tanker counterparts as reasonably well as Scrappers meet the expectations set by that short hairy guy with the claws and as Brutes do for the big green guy with the anger issues, without having to pretend being a decoy means you're a powerhouse because some guy played too much DnD designing the game instead of referring to guys like Kirby, Lee or Bruce Timm.
Why those ATs are allowed to, but Tankers have to get the shaft for "balance" that I don't think is really balanced isn't something anyone will ever convince me of.
.
Total tanker, not known for damage output! -
Nope.
But then on AOE buffs, I tend to just run to the middle of the group and fire it off too.
-
Quote:I do wonder why they didnt use the ATO as a way to increase Tankers damage. A Proc that gives stackable +DMG.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Ah, but the devs just gave Brutes an ATO that helps them build Fury even easier. And the last change to Brutes improved their Fury building speed as well (at the cost of maximum Fury...which the Brute ATO seems to correct...wait, what?)
The devs' actions seem indicate they disagree with you.
. -
Quote:Then role a Brute.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Maybe you need to look at it another way.
Spider-Man gets up, fights four muggers armed with handguns and gets his "Inf" for the day.
How is that any different than Thor waking up, fighting 4 giant robots and getting his "Inf" for the day?
It's not. It only becomes a problem when you force Thor to fight four muggers armed with handguns and they wreck him. Because the reverse, Spidey taking down four giant robots, just makes him look awesome.
First, most of the content in the game does NOT require Tanker-level toughness.
Second, if a Brute can jump into mobs of +4X8, and win out, what does it matter if the Tanker is tougher?
In a world with Barrier and Rebirth, this is a reality. My Brute face planted ZERO times in all of the DA arcs. He didn't need to match my Tanker's numbers to do that and did better damage than my Tanker the whole time.
So I ask: If they've balanced Tanker damage against survivability, including forcing low damage caps on Tankers, how is giving Brutes and Scrappers a level shift or temp powers that improve survivability (making them that much tougher against ALL content in the game), but still keeping their damage relative to Tankers just as high, fair to Tankers?
I don't think it is.
It boils down to a simple fact:
There are diminishing benefits to being tougher. Once you can survive whatever they throw at you, when you are above the "immortality line", being tougher than that isn't really an asset.
The more powerful everyone becomes, the more Brutes and Scrappers climb above that line for a larger and larger percentage of the content. Having their damage stay superior to Tankers even when none of them are really going to faceplant just isn't fair. Those times that none of them are going to face plant are only becoming more and more frequent, but the damage gap is staying the game.
. If you don't think you need the superior toughness, and can get that feeling you're looking for from a Brute, roll the Brute
I see your call to buff tankers (and Im not against it), and really I think what you want can be found in the devs making IO sets that give more +DMG potential, but you want to play the Superman, you say you want that feeling of playing Superman...
If you can get that feeling by playing a Brute, why are you so fixated on playing a Tanker for that role? Is it just because of the game mechanics of Fury? Is it just because that seems the closest ideal to Superman? -
They dont need a makeover!
They need new secondary powersets!
-
Quote:I've known many who consider their Brute AT character to basically be a Scrapper, except Fury is a game mechanic.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
But that is the very definition of Fury. I am curious as how you define fury if it is not anger or frustration. As you said, not a challenge, just really curious.
So they'll have the Spider-Man type hero/villian, but use the Brute AT because they like the Brute ATs game mechanics better.
While I was never one for adding taunt auras to existing Scrapper secondaries after they were added to ported versions for Brutes, due to legacy issues (there are just players out there who don't want the aggro aura), I don't discount it's usefulness at all.
I have a character I want to roll as a scrapper but wish I had an aggro aura so enemies actually stay around. It's a useful mechanic.
So basically...I wouldn't let game/AT mechanics dictate the type of character concept a person is rolling.
But going by Brute, I think saying a SS/INV Brute is Superman, and that Fury represents him using more of his strength as the fight goes on. Starts out holding back, notusing his full strength as he's pulling his punches to start, and as the fight goes on it becomes obvious that the enemy can take it, so the punches get harder and harder untill...BOOM! -
Quote:Being the comic book fan that I am, you're right Johnny! Superman and Statesman as dipicted in comics and in game itself for Statesman, they do lots of damage.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Superman disagrees.
So does Statesman.
FYI, Darrin Wade didn't steal Statesman's powers so he could stand there and act as a distraction while someone else did the real fighting.
.
Here's the thing...they're not really Tankers in the sense of Player Characters. They're above that. And if what they were, were allowed in the game, why would most people roll anything else?
Hmmm...do I roll the Spider-Man or the Superman? Survive anything and take out anything! Yeah, like most players wouldn't choose that.
Though I am curious...I notice people say "So and So AT can be made to be as tough as Tankers"
Now while solo this isn't true. Even at softcapped defenses, the Tanker will be tougher than their counterparts due to higher resists and higher base health.
So only in a team situation will a Brute surpass a Tanker on the same team as the Brute in that the brute can be at 90% Resists and do more damage (again on the right team).
But, I'm still for dropping Brutes down to 85% Max Resists. Though I'm also for raising Scrapper max resist to 80%, and also making it so the squishie ATs get better returns from Tough/Weave than the Melee ATs
I'd keep Stalker max resists at 75% to go with being the squishier Melee AT. -
http://avionetca.deviantart.com/
Awesome artist, everyone should get some art by her! Totally encourage it! And no, the artist is not me. -
The only thing I wish they'd do differently is release the powersets faster. All those other things...I can wait.
Those powersets...if it's ready I say let us purchase and play it!