Bluefan

Heh, ya. I know I have been dodging the bullet a bit, but I might as well say it: we don't handle Monsters/AVs well. I, personally (so this isn't a universal Ice Tanker proclamation) can handle just about any AV as long as that AV isn't psychic or has Def Debuff. But I do have Tough, and I enjoy it. But I do feel we can tank everything but monsters/AVs a lot better than nay other Tanker set, and since 99% of all enemies aren't Monsters/AVs, I feel pretty good.

Well thanks Archimedes for confirming that. That really sucks then because I loved the ability to drain the end of all minions and lieutenants, and to some extent bosses. I could easily live with the five enemy cap for def, but not for end drain.

You know, if I could ask for three changes to the Ice set they would be:
1)Some sort of Psy Res/Def and more toxic Res for Permafrost.
2)Icicles to posess a mild either DefDebuff, Enddrain, or Acc Debuff, and for Icicles to do Cold damage.
3)Something for Hibernate. I'm not sure what, maybe a mega taunt as it's activated, a shorter activation time, and maybe a shorter duration that would force a player to slot it for more recharges or heals, thus making it an active power in the set.

Hmmm, ok, I'll take the accuracy response. I don't feel that my Icicles misses nearly 40% of the time, but whatever.

And I wasn't meaning to start a fight on the end drain thing, I just didn't know if anyone had tried it yet.

That's really sad that you've been rejected before, I guess I'm lucky never to have had that experience.

To Circ: Icicles hit's once every 2.5 seconds!? I was just throing out 3 hits per WA, that wasn't based on Icicles or testing or anything else! If Icicles indeed hits every 2.5 seconds then my numbers would be much higher! Like, 50-75% better, making Icicles even more appealing. I just love the power, it does so much damage over time as I'm herding and just sitting there with WA and Pendulum. I'd have to rework my numbers, something I don't want to do right now, to reflect this new data. And just from casual memory, Icicles hits around 5 out of 6 tries on +2 minions for me.

And to Archmedes: 2 things. 1) When did Geko say that the End Drain would only affect 5 enemies? I read that we would receive a Def buff from only 5, but we can only end drain 5 now? Hmmm. 2) I have never ever ever ever ever ever been rejected from a team because I was an Ice tanker. If anything I get ooos and ahhhs as I easily hold the attention of Krakens or what have you.

Dude, whether you hit 10 or 20 enemies your def caps out at 95%. So if you just have 2 +# Def Buff enhancements in it (I do 2 Def/2 Rchg/2 Enddrain) You can hit the 95% cap from 5 enemies, or close enough and your armors will do the rest.

2 things Circ:

1) You do not have to wait for WA to recharge again to kill the enemy. According to your calcs, after 3 WA and the subsequent Icicle hits the enemy has taken 288 damage, living the enemy with 12 more life. That's just 1 hit from Icicles, and it does not take 14 seconds for Icicles to hit once. It take maybe 3 seconds. So you need to factor that in.

My second point is that you said you gain 25% damage for 40% more endurance, but 14 seconds isn't worth it; you need to stick to percentages. To me 25% more damage AND 25% time saved every single battle is worth 40% more endurance. But since you're numbers were wrong for Icicles you are actually saving more time and using less endurance.

So let's start where your mistake was:
(3 * 70) + (2 * 39) = 210 + 78 = 288

Totals are:

14*2 + 4(I'll be generous) = 32 seconds
(14.25 * 3) + (0.75 * 32) = 42.75 + 24 = 66.75 Endurance
(3 * 70) + (7 * 13) = 210 + 91 = 301 damage

And the final stats for the the WA + Icicles kill is:

66.75 / 32 = 2.09 EPS (End per second)
301 / 32 = 9.41 DPS (Damage per second)

*****

So taking the numbers time, EPS, and DPS ratings we can figure out just how much benefit running Icicles in tune with Whirling Axe is versus just running Whirling Axe:

56 - 32 = 24 seconds saved when running Icicles
24 / 56 = 42.8% of total time is saved when running Icicles

2.09 - 1.27 = 0.5 EPS higher cost when running Icicles
0.82 / 1.27 = 64.6% increase in End use when running Icicles

9.41 - 6.25 = 3.16 DPS increase when running Icicles
3.16 / 6.25 = 50.6% increase in damage when running Icicles

So 42.8% time saved and 50.6% more DPS for 64.6% more endurance. I have Stamina, Icicles' end drain can be remedied. I don't have any other AoE for more damage or some hack to make my game run faster.

Also, Circ, I built my Ice Tanker all post-I3. So all I know about tanking is post-I3, and I don't know, I don't remember excessive trouble with Energy or Neg or Holds.

Also LeMoi, I didn't mean to sound like an [censored]. If you like 8 person groups, more power to you, and yes, the Ice EPP rocks. Or atleast Block of Ice does.

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Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.

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I think you're giving Icicles way too much credit. Icicles is a power that comes with the set and that you take if there isn't anything better to take. It's not a defining power, nor a power that makes you go "wow! I gotta make an Ice tanker".

Icicles is an ok power at lower levels (By lower I mean before lvl 28 or so)... After that slowly looses it's charm. It is an ok power if you solo or are part of very small teams a lot (By small I mean 4 or less heroes). I saw your build and you're probably part of the solo/small team crowd.

Invincibility from Inv/ tankers, Burn from Fire Tankers, or Nova from Energy Blasters... Those are powers that makes you want to make an AT.

What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles. Perfect example is this I4's EA! To make that power be of any use you're going to need to add a few slots to it. In my case I'd take those slots from Icicles.

Another power is Wave. As it is nowadays, a few Ice Tankers take Wave to gain some psionic defense. If I was to take Wave, Icicles is the power that has to go.

So, what's to point to all this? What I said a few post ago: Icicles is not a defining/balancing power. Icicles is not worth wasting our time for now. Icicles is not the reason why the devs feel the need to hurt EA so bad... Why are we even talking about Icicles? Let's talk about what's really important here: Energy Absorbtion, and the fact that it's Saturday night. PARTY TIME!

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Look buddy, I'm not trying to portray Icicles as a build defining power: it isn't. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Weave, in my opinion isn't necessary, and if it forces you to drop a power because you want Psy defense, then it's just another argument for added Psy defense for Tankers, not for Smash/Lethal Resist. My point, ONCE AGAIN, is that there are plenty of power slots in an Ice/Anything build to take Icicles. I never solo, but I normally play in 3-5 person groups. The larger the grp, the more I use Icicles for aggro, the smaller the more I use it for damage; it's very versatile.

And, ONCE AGAIN, where are all your slots going!? From my build you can see that I have EA, Icicles, FA, WI, Stamina, and 3 attacks 6 slotted. "What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, if I need to remove a power to be able to tank, that power is going to be Icicles." I agree with your statement here, but my argument is that I believe there is no conceivable build where you have to actually DROP Icicles to take a power that will define your tanking ability. If anything I'd drop an EPP, but I know how many of you rabid Conserve Power fans there are out there, but that's just one EPP. My argument, one last time for all you people who continue to miss it, is that there is always room for Icicles, and there should be plenty of room to 6 slot Icicles, or at the very least 3 or 4 slot it. Always.

If anyone cares to debate my one argument, post your build and I will critique and fix it so that you may enjoy the quirky little fun power that is Icicles.

Once again, why would you ever drop Icicles or Hoarfrost? AoE dmg aura plus a perma 40% more life! I don't understand what these "phantom powers" are that everyone needs to take, thus forcing them to drop Icicles and Hoarfrost. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 powers in Ice not worth taking.

Well wouldn't that be sort of weird? If an attack was half smashing damage and half energy damage, then with no energy defense you would take half damage. Isn't that just a modified for of resistance? Def is based on ToHits, so the attack either all hits or all misses, but I could be wrong.

First Circ, I think you misunderstood my point. I was saying why would you ever drop Icicles if, when coupled with your AoE Tanker secondary attack, you increased your damage output by 50%!? For soloing it's great, for grouping I like it a lot as well as it softens up enemies while I herd. Some of your numbers look wrong in the second point. You need to label your data for me to be able to follow it more clearly.

I'm saying that if an enemy has 300 life, by having Icicles on I can use Whirling Axe 3 times fro 210 damage, and Icicles will hit approximately 9 times in that timeframe of 3 WA uses, providing the remaining 90 or so damage to finish off the enemy.

Without Icicles you have to use Whirling Axe 5 times, WA has a rchg of 14 sec, totalling 59(it has to recharge 4 times for 5 uses, plus a bit more for the last activation time) seconds.

With Icicles, I use WA just 3 times, for a total of 31 sec (2 rchgs plus a bit for last activation time)(My numbers might be a bit off, so allow for maybe a +/- 2 sec error), a 47% reduction in the time to kill the enemy.

5 uses of WA costs 68.65 end, at 13.73 per use with one +3 SO. With 3 uses of WA and Icicles running, I use 3uses(13.73) + 31sec(0.75) = 64.44 end. By my calculations, which my be a bit off, I save end and time to kill my enemies (based of fighting +1 or 2 minions and WA and Icicles 6 slotted with 1acc/1endrdx/4dmg).

Second, I took Wet Ice at 22 because I did not feel holds, mezzes, immobs, etc were very prevalent pre 20. I didn't die very often and I still only have one of the badges for being mezzed. Pre Wet Ice I was never overwrought with holds, and I honestly believe, from playing this game since beta just like you, that protection from holds aren't critical til post 20.

Third, Energy is not prevalent in any respect. Pre 26(EA) you almost never see it, and I cannot recall any time pre 40 when I died from an energy attack. The reason is that the majority of energy attacks also have smashing damage components, and if my armors and EA dodge the smashing aspect with me smash defense, I also dodge the energy portion of the attack. Thus, I did not find I ever needed Glacial Armor until Sappers, Anti-Matter's Rad Nuons, and kinf of Synapse's Electrodes. GA is unneeded pre 30, and more realistically pre 40.

Fourth, I have no beef with Hasten. It's a very optional power as a Tank and I'm not persecuting you for taking it. But my point still stands: What powers did you absolutely have to take that forced you to drop Icicles and/or Boxing and Tough? I wanted Tough at 30 because most damage at that point in the game was still smash/lethal damage that got through. Energy wasn't a problem, Fire wasn't a problem, Neg energy wasn't a problem, Psy wasn't a problem. It was the few Smash/Lethal attacks that got through.

When I 1st learn about I4's EA I was thinking about droping Icicles to be able to slot EA (Since it's the only power I can't live without), but after all the testing I've been doing on Live and Test Servers I've decided that if they actually keep the chances to EA (Because they're going live for sure, unless that's one of the thing they're planning to fix this thuesday) then I'm just going to roll an Inv/EM and become yet another FotM.

Anyways... I guess that my point (If any... It's really late and don't feel like thinking) is that if I was to be told that Icicles/CE is what makes them think that EA is too overpowered, or that Ice Tanker are as good as any other tanker; then for me to belived that I'd have to see Icicles doing at least 9 times more damage that what it does currently.

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This is just one such post I saw Archimedes concerning some sort of slot problems a player is having.

Secondly, this is directed directly at Archimedes and Circeus: What powers did you need to take so bad that taking Boxing/Kick and Tough hurt your build so bad? I've consistently pointed out that I have been much closer to having no powers that I want than too many powers that I want. Why is taking two fighting pool powers so detrimental to your build Archimedes, and why is taking Icicles bad for you Circeus?

Um Circ, I have a couple really important questions for you.

1) I have no idea what pool powers you could be taking that would cause you to drop Icicles. I have all the Ice powers but Permafrost and Hibernate, and all the Axe powers but Chop and Build Up. I also have 3 powers from fitness, 2 from Leaping, 2 from Fighting, and 1 from Arctic Mastery. I'm lvl 45. What powers did you need so badly that you HAD to drop Icicles!? I'm genuinely curious.

2) How theh ell is Hibernate more useful than Icicles, that's just crazy talk.

3) You said that any AoE attack from a tanker secondary is more useful than Icicles will ever be at helping to kill large groups of mobs. At lvl 45 I have Icicles and Whirling Axe 6 slotted the same way, 1 acc/1endrdx/4 dmg. To +2 minions Whirling Axe does approximately 70 damage; in the time that Whirling Axe is being used and then recharging, Icicles hits about 3 times would be my guess, maybe 2 or 2.5. Icicles does 13 damage per tic. If I were to only use Whirling Axe, as it is my only AoE, then for every use of Whirling Axe I would be increasing my damage output but 33-50% of Whirling Axe's damage (26 from icicles at 2 tics, 39 damage from 3 tics). 33-50%. I really hope you do not consider that insignificant, or ever dare to mention such sacreligous text as Hibernate being more useful. And I didn't even mention the taunt factor.

As for the rest of you, where is this starvation of slots coming from? I'm assuming we're analyzing Ice tankers late game, as in 40+. At 45 I have FA, WI, EA, Stamina, Icicles, Hoarfrost, Beheader, Whirling Axe, Cleave, and Pendulum 6 slotted. Tough is 5 slotted. Health is 3 slotted. Block of Ice, Glacial Armor, Ice Blast, and Build-Up will all eventually have 3 slots. But at 45, defensively, I just need one more slot for Tough, which I will put in next level, and I will be done. I have seen numerous posts along the lines of "I'm dropping Icicles so that I have slots for EA! Ice is gimped :'(:'(:'(" I am really befuddled as to where all your slots have gone! Dropping Icicles so that EA can be slotted!? Just to give all you rookie Ice Tankers a look at how a good slotting plan looks, here's my build:

Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh

Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Ice Armor
Secondary Powers - Support : Battle Axe

Level 01 : Gash
Accuracy ( 01 )

Level 01 : Frozen Armor
Endurance Reduction ( 01 )
Defense Buff ( 3 )
Defense Buff ( 3 )
Defense Buff ( 5 )
Defense Buff ( 5 )
Defense Buff ( 7 )

Level 02 : Hoarfrost
Recharge Reduction ( 02 )
Recharge Reduction ( 7 )
Recharge Reduction ( 9 )
Recharge Reduction ( 9 )
Recharge Reduction ( 11 )
Endurance Reduction ( 11 )

Level 04 : Taunt
Recharge Reduction ( 04 )

Level 06 : Boxing
Accuracy ( 06 )

Level 08 : Chilling Embrace
Endurance Reduction ( 08 )
Endurance Reduction ( 13 )

Level 10 : Beheader
Accuracy ( 10 )
Endurance Reduction ( 13 )
Damage ( 15 )
Damage ( 15 )
Damage ( 17 )
Damage ( 17 )

Level 12 : Jump Kick
Accuracy ( 12 )

Level 14 : Super Jump
Jump ( 14 )

Level 16 : Hurdle
Jump ( 16 )

Level 18 : Health
Healing ( 18 )
Healing ( 19 )
Healing ( 19 )
Healing ( 46 )

Level 20 : Stamina
Endurance Recovery ( 20 )
Endurance Recovery ( 21 )
Endurance Recovery ( 21 )
Endurance Recovery ( 23 )
Endurance Recovery ( 25 )
Endurance Recovery ( 33 )

Level 22 : Wet Ice
Endurance Reduction ( 22 )
Defense Buff ( 23 )
Defense Buff ( 25 )
Defense Buff ( 29 )
Defense Buff ( 31 )
Defense Buff ( 39 )

Level 24 : Swoop
Accuracy ( 24 )

Level 26 : Energy Absorption
Recharge Reduction ( 26 )
Recharge Reduction ( 27 )
Defense Buff ( 27 )
Defense Buff ( 29 )
Endurance Drain ( 31 )
Endurance Drain ( 33 )

Level 28 : Whirling Axe
Accuracy ( 28 )
Endurance Reduction ( 34 )
Damage ( 43 )
Damage ( 45 )
Damage ( 45 )
Damage ( 45 )

Level 30 : Tough
Endurance Reduction ( 30 )
Damage Resistance ( 31 )
Damage Resistance ( 33 )
Damage Resistance ( 34 )
Damage Resistance ( 36 )
Damage Resistance ( 46 )

Level 32 : Icicles
Accuracy ( 32 )
Endurance Reduction ( 34 )
Damage ( 42 )
Damage ( 42 )
Damage ( 43 )
Damage ( 43 )

Level 35 : Cleave
Accuracy ( 35 )
Damage ( 36 )
Damage ( 36 )
Damage ( 37 )
Damage ( 37 )
Damage ( 37 )

Level 38 : Pendulum
Accuracy ( 38 )
Endurance Reduction ( 39 )
Damage ( 39 )
Damage ( 40 )
Damage ( 40 )
Damage ( 40 )

Level 41 : Block of Ice
Accuracy ( 41 )
Hold Duration ( 42 )
Recharge Reduction ( 46 )

Level 44 : Glacial Armor
Endurance Reduction ( 44 )
Defense Buff ( 48 )
Defense Buff ( 50 )

Level 47 : Ice Blast
Accuracy ( 47 )
Damage ( 48 )
Damage ( 48 )

Level 49 : Build Up
Recharge Reduction ( 49 )
Recharge Reduction ( 50 )
Recharge Reduction ( 50 )

I am really surprised that Icicles is 1.0/tic. I thing my endurance manages fairly well, and I have Axe as my secondary. I have 1 end rdx in all my armors and tough, 2 in CE, none in EA, 1 in all my axe attacks except Cleave and Swoop, and 1 in icicles. I run FA, WI, GA, CE, Icicles, and Tough and I do fine whenevr my enhancements are +1 to +3. But ya, an end drop in Icicles would be nice, and some sort of change to EA.

Ok, don't answer my question...

Ummm, rayaguas1, you only took 19 powers in your build...
7 power pools, 7 primaries, and 5 secondaries. What are the last 5 powers you plan to take? I'm just curious because this guide is kind of incomplete as it stands.

Well frankly that's the worst marketing strategy I've ever heard. Frankly, I'll never pay $30 a month to pay essentially the same game. I was under the impression that CoV was an expansion, and you don't see EQ expansions charging more. And if it is a sequel, a sequel should never come out while the former game is still in full swing. Sony isn't expceting people to pay for EQ and EQ2. I'd probably have to make the choice between CoH and CoV, and if that happens both NCSoft and I (the player) lose.