Biowraith

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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.

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It's pretty easy to perma for a mastermind, you're not gonna need to go for global recharge or hasten or anything. As to the dumb AI targeting, I was under the impression the -tohit comparison was dealing with the special case of AVs (since away from AV debuff resistance Dark blows TA's -tohit away, with or without Dark Servant). In an AV fight Fluffy will very quickly only have one choice of target, eliminating that issue. Though in normal play it's possible to adjust your tactics to compensate somewhat too - I'm very fond of the Darkest Night to Tar Patch corner pull which bunches everything up such that it doesn't matter too much who he targets (with his cone immobilise helping keep them that way).

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You're right, lets compare the -tohit numbers between /dark and /TA on imperious. We'll even include dark servant to be nice.

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I must be missing something. Wouldn't those numbers be the same ones we've already gone over in this thread? If you can elaborate to the contrary for this particular example, go for it, I'm fine with learning new things.

I had Guardian for a while and I ended up dropping him because I couldn't really tell a difference between when he was summoned and when he wasn't. It's not that he was *bad* per se, just kinda got lost in amongst the rest of the Crab awesomeness.

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Ninja on aggressive?! *shudders* I have seen ninja run rampant if put in aggressive. It's rarely IMO worth doing.

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That's half the fun!

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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.

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It's pretty easy to perma for a mastermind, you're not gonna need to go for global recharge or hasten or anything. As to the dumb AI targeting, I was under the impression the -tohit comparison was dealing with the special case of AVs (since away from AV debuff resistance Dark blows TA's -tohit away, with or without Dark Servant). In an AV fight Fluffy will very quickly only have one choice of target, eliminating that issue. Though in normal play it's possible to adjust your tactics to compensate somewhat too - I'm very fond of the Darkest Night to Tar Patch corner pull which bunches everything up such that it doesn't matter too much who he targets (with his cone immobilise helping keep them that way).

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Heh, you didn't see where I commented on MY build and personal lack of having the dark servant to try out. I did comment though that it could possibly duplicate my total debuffing. And this is defenders, not masterminds since I don't have a /dark mastermind high enough to have all the debuffs.

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I did see you mention it, but I also saw enough comparisons with Flash Arrow's unresistable -tohit throughout the thread implying or outright stating that the two sets had basically the same -tohit vs AVs that it seemed necessary to emphasise the difference once you do factor Fluffy in. Although the difference isn't quite as extreme, it felt like watching a comparison with Kin's +dam that kept excluding Fulcrum Shift.

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I deleted it due to frustration. My pets were always running out of healing range mid heal animation, thus not getting healed. Things also were hitting though darkest night far too often. This meant I had to heal frequently, and the pets weren't getting healed due to running away. I got maybe to 12 before giving up on the char in disgust.

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My own Necro/Dark pretty much steamrolled to 50. Yeah the zombies seem to do their best to avoid being healed, but I just treat them as one shot vomit cannons (corner pull onto tar patch and they're really pretty effective that way). Once Fearsome Stare opened up it was plain sailing from thereon out. Indeed, of my MMs it was probably the smoothest ride: only my Bots/FF felt safer once it got going (seemed as fragile as the rest to start with), but there wasn't a lot in it and the Necro/Dark was generally faster.

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Normal max debuff: 60.5
Normal sustainable debuff: 41.75 (can't keep Fearsome Stare up constantly)

Max debuff on AV: 15.125
Sustainable debuff on AV: 10.4375

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If I did the maths right, my Necro/Dark has an enhanced max debuff of 9.125 against AVs with Twilight Grasp double stacked but no Dark Servant and not counting Shadowfall.

My (very rough) testing in-game says my sustainable debuff is at or close to that maximum - I don't quite have Fearsome Stare perma yet (20 sec duration on the debuff, 27 sec recharge, when I'm done it should be about 21 sec) but I think I can almost triple stack Twilight Grasp (20 sec duration, 7.8 seconds activation+recharge) so yeah, that sounds about right all things considered.

But as I said earlier in the thread, Dark Servant shouldn't be discounted as he contributes a significant amount of tohit debuff; even at range he'll output -tohit in quantities similar to the character that summoned him (enhanced, mine has 7.5 for TG, 7.5 for TT, 22.5 for DN, for a total of 37.5*0.25 = 9.375 debuff while he's alive and within 40ft). Get him into melee and Chill of Night gives another 45*.25 = 11.25 debuff.

So adding him to the player's contribution and you're looking at 30% total debuff if you keep him in melee, and 20% if he ends up at range (rarely dies if he's allowed to sit at range, varies with AV and team composition if you keep him in melee - Manti sure couldn't scratch him, but BAB smacked him down pretty quickly).

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is don't discount Dark Servant from -tohit comparisons, because his -tohit contribution is often more than the rest of the set combined.


Standard disclaimer that I may have got all that wrong applies though - I rarely delve into the mechanics/maths of it all and approaching midnight probably isn't the best time to start. And as I say, it's the -damage I value the most, the -tohit is just gravy to me (for AV fights, anyway).

Personally I usually value the -dam in Dark more highly than the -tohit, for AV fights - outside of a few high resist AVs it's usually more effective, and also more consistent/reliable mitigation.

For what it's worth, on the -tohit front I tried a quick couple fights against an even con Manticore and Back Alley Brawler with my 50 Necro/Dark [edit for clarity: not both at once]. I didn't summon Lich and I didn't upgrade the other henchmen (so the only -tohit they had was if the Knights decided to Dark Blast). I had Shadowfall running for an enhanced 5.5% defense. With just Shadowfall they were getting 80-90% tohit. With Shadowfall plus my debuffs (Darkest Night + stacking Twilight Grasp + non-stacking Fearsome Stare) they were down to about 50-65%. When I dropped Dark Servant next to them and gave him a few seconds to do his thing, that dropped to 40-55% (values fluctuated partially due to TG&FS missing, but mostly due to whether Fluffy got knocked out of PBAoE range by Explosive Arrow - he still contributes, but not as much).

I had another go with a 51 Manticore and you could basically add 10% to those tohit rolls - he bottomed out at ~51% tohit, and once Fluffy was out of range was usually at 60-65%. Which is roughly consistent with the purple patch modifier.

Which isn't bad. Obviously it falls off a bit against higher cons, but I think you're looking at +4s before it's down to the 5-10% numbers used in the comparisons with Flash Arrow (unless I'm missing something obvious, which is entirely possible).

For reference, the stacked -dam had Manticore at about 10% of his normal damage - it was like fighting a high-hp minion. After the initial set up at the very start of the fight I don't think he was capable of killing even a Zombie, much less me. BABs was far less of a success story, and I think the lowest I got him was about 55% of his normal damage (it was hard to get a read on him as he was constantly stunning me and knocking, stunning or outright killing Fluffy).

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All that and /poison for Corrs.

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I really hope we have that by the time we get dual pistols.

At the moment (still levelling) I just have a couple recharge in mine. Longer term plan is for 4 Dark Watcher - I opted for that over Stupefy as the set bonuses are almost as good (lose 0.38% hp, 1.25% recharge and the largely pointless 3% stun) but I get more recharge to the power itself, slightly lower endurance cost, and save a slot for use elsewhere.

From around 35+ I slot pretty much all my pets with 2 Acc/Dam, 1 Dam/End, and 1 Acc/Dam/End. That gets them a good amount of accuracy, ED capped damage, and enough endurance that the end-hogs among them don't have any problems.

That leaves 2 slots per pet for procs or secondary enhancements.

In the case of Enforcers or Bots, I use those 2 slots for Defense.

For Soldiers, Spec Ops, Jounin and Grave Knights I pop in an Achilles Heel and Lady Grey proc.

Commando, Assbot and Bruiser get an Explosive Strike proc (they used to get a Force Feedback proc too, but ).

I'd probably give Thugs/Punks the Explosive Strike proc too, depending whether I needed space for a unique - same goes for Genin (though they just have one single target attack that can trigger it, Punks at least get a cone).

I may give Lich some tohit debuff enhancers (maybe the Dark Watcher proc) though fear or hold may work too, and I may give Oni a hold enhancer or two.

Otherwise spare slots get the +res and +def uniques, and maybe the buildup proc if'n it's working properly.

Slotting heals in Zombies doesn't seem worth it - they don't use them often or intelligently enough. Nor controls in the Spec Ops for the same reason only moreso (maybe if they had about 1/4 the recharge on them). Tohit debuff in Grave Knights would be ok, but I'd rather they use their swords over their dark blasts, and I feel the procs give more mileage than defense debuffs (in any pet). I did consider slotting knockback in Genin, just for amusement value, and who knows, I may still go that route.


Also End redux slotting does reduce the summoning cost of the power, in addition to the cost to the pet of using their powers (I just tested it in-game to be sure).

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I suggest Necro/Dark. The combo is pretty easy to get the hang of, and provides some wonderful mitigation and absolutely superb crowd control.

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Personally I found the zombies harder/more annoying to control than Bots or Mercs, but - as always - YMMV.

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My experience with the zombies is that when injured they love to run off a split second before Twilight Grasp fires

That said, so long as at the start of the battle they got off their two (small) aoe vomits onto the mobs that I'd usually Darkest-Night-Corner-Pulled into a bunch on Tar Patch, I didn't really care what happened to them after that.


Necro/Dark was my first MM and is a fairly solid performer able to trample most encounters, especially once you have Fearsome Stare. It wasn't my first MM 50 though, that was a Bots/FF - it's not fast, but on the other hand nothing slows it down either and it practically plays itself (which may or may not be a good thing).

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2. Confuse Rommie, who then ganks his fluffy buddies...then curb stomb Rommie since he has no support now.

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I've been on a team that went for this approach, but it was hellishly slow. It was particularly frustrating because we *should* have been able to bum-rush Rommie but the guy doing the confusing was a /Kin who had, but never used Speed Boost, Fulcrum, or Siphon Power during the whole TF (I tell a lie, he used Siphon Power once when I suggested we might have more success if he used his secondary a bit more for that particular fight). I think he used Transfusion a couple times, but not for the AV fights. Seems he just really really liked confuse and resented using anything else.

Sorry, don't mean to de-rail into a bad-player rant. Well, I do, but maybe if I say sorry it'll all be ok.

The first "impressive" duo I ran was an Ill/Kin Controller paired with an Ice/Ice Blaster. Between decoys and spectral terror alphas were rarely a problem, and after that the enemy was quickly crippled and flattened. With SOs (pre-inventions) we duoed pretty much every mission and story arc out there, along with a couple giant monsters (Jack in Irons & Eochai) and both had lots of fun doing so. Since IO's they've just gotten silly

I've run a few duos with the same friend since, but I don't think any have handled 'hard' targets so well; Illusion is great for directing away AV aggro, while Kin is good both for reducing any splash damage to manageable levels and also keeping the blaster going at full pelt.

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It was retorical actually. I just get a kick out of people saying "this power is great for X archtype but sucks for Y archtype" when it works identically for both. If something does the same thing for two archtypes at the same strength then claiming one is 'better' at using the power is silly.

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The context made me think that, but the wording made me less certain. Oh well, guess it provides a minor bit of info for folks that didn't know.

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Then explain to me why masterminds have the same strength of recharge debuffing as defenders.

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From the context I'm not sure if that's rhetorical, but if not: it's because Glue Arrow debuffs via a pseudo pet, and the devs haven't created separate sticky-arrow pets for the different ATs. (MMs do get lower -recharge debuff values when applying recharge debuffs directly) (edit: going by city of data, anyway)


And re: enhancing -recharge, I *think* there is/was a display bug where it showed slow (and possibly runspeed) enhancements as also enhancing -recharge, but that it wasn't really having an effect. My memory's hazy on that one though.

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I did not account for Dark Servant, because I don't have enough experience to know how reliable the pet is in combat, or how well it can survive inside melee range of an AV. Chill of the Night has a 10' radius, and Dark Servant is flagged to stay at range, so you first have to get it into the appropriate range for Chill to be applied (potentially easy, if you summon it at the feet of the AV), then keep it in that range (which means keeping the pet and the AV from moving), then keep it alive in the event that the AV uses PBAoEs or directly attacks the pet. Too many variables to properly account for, so I didn't include it.

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While I'm not going to get into the actual Dark vs TA part of this thread (I've played lots and lots of Dark vs some TA, so I do have some bias, but neither set is exactly disappointing), I will say that you'll not be getting a true picture if you discount Dark Servant - his -tohit really is substantial, rivalling the Dark player that summoned him (plus a decent amount of additional -damage). In fact I'd say that AV fights are his strongest point, as he tends to be less reliable with his targetting in a busy environment, but once it's down to just one target he'll focus all his debuffing might on them.

For the most part the AV immobilise hole works in his favour there (his Tentacles plus patron immob, and the fact that once combat starts he rarely moves) so the majority of the time he'll stay next to the AV so long as he's alive. His ranged -tohit isn't too shabby either though (he gets a version of Darkest Night, along with Twilight Grasp and Tentacles' -tohit), it's just that it's twice as good if you can keep them in Chill of Night. Most of the time I find he survives ok due to the masses of -damage stacked on top of the -tohit, along with all the healspam (essentially, all the stuff keeping the rest of the team alive keeps him alive).


Also, I *think* Twilight Grasp maybe stacks, even from the same source and is somewhat spammable - it certainly stacked many many moons ago before real numbers etc when I was testing it to find the exact values, but I've not really paid attention to whether it still does (and I'm too lazy to go check now, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it ).

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Dark Blast would be cool as well, but they would need to re-work it. Far too much AoE power in there for blasters to have.

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Not sure I'm seeing that myself.

I mean, I've not run the attack-chain maths or anything (so I could be *way* off), but from both using it in-game and looking at the base values it doesn't appear any stronger than e.g. Rad, Fire or AR (or probably Archery, post-RoA) in terms of AoE output.


As to proliferation, I'd like to add that I want either Sonic or Thermal (or both) for MMs. Though a Ninja/Kin appeals too - actual effectiveness aside, speed boosted ninjas would be amusing.

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Yeah... not much more to add to this other than "hurr... AE babies are stupid"


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Not AE limited, of course, viz. the guy who faceplanted a few nights ago and stayed put asking for a wakie, in a Kings Row mission (so we were all lowish) not 50 yds from the hospital.

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Had someone do the same in a skyway mission about 200yds from the hospital... but with the added stupid that the mission had completed, we'd cleared everything, and the team were now exiting.

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Poison corruptors?

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This is it for me.

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wait, wait, wait... 99 Luftballons is an apocolypse song? wtF?The end of the world by helium over-dose?!

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I did kinda wonder about that one. Apparently it's a story about 99 balloons being released in the air and triggering an apocalyptic overreaction from the military - this being in Germany during the Cold War. Can't say I ever studied the lyrics (I know balloons are involved, if that helps), but it's in wikipedia so it must be true.

Hurl, at point blank range.

At that range it doesn't look like you're throwing it so much as breaking it over the head of your victim. Especially satisfying against a target that *really* shouldn't be able to take a slab of concrete over the head (last time I did it was against Indigo - smash and crumple).

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I'm sorry, but what was the point of this thread?

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Cripes now you want points?!

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Points mean prizes.

I've published the 2 arcs I really wanted to make and occasionally go back to tweak and polish them; I'll continue to do so any time we either get better compression/more space for the mission file, or new options open up that fit my intentions better (or someone gives feedback suggestions that I agree with).

I have a 3rd arc published that I was just being silly on (well, I was being silly on all of them really, but this one is more stupid than the others) that I'll probably replace some day, I just haven't had any idea that made me think "Yes! I must make that an arc!" to replace it with yet. The lack of attention the existing ones get doesn't particularly motivate me either though.

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That's mostly because it's a really complicated power. The initial activation creates 2 pseudo-pets, one at the feet of the Kineticist that simply does a +dam buff and another at the feet of the target that debuffs all enemies within 30' and then proceeds to create a new pseudo-pet for every enemy within the area of effect that buffs all allies within 20' of the new pseudo-pet. It's horribly convoluted. It's less a myth and more a horribly confusing chain of pseudo-pets and their effects.

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Eh, I agree the mechanics are complicated and convoluted, but let the pseudo pets and all sit in the background and the end result always seemed relatively straightforward to me.

I've seen a lot of misconceptions about how Fulcrum Shift works. No one single myth though, just a lot of people that are aware of some aspects of the power but not others - and are usually very resistant to any explanations on the part(s) they've missed.

e.g. the only buff is the one centred around the caster, or it's only the one centred around the mobs, there's only one mob centred buff and it's for/around the one targeted, the only mob debuffed is the one targeted, everyone near the caster gets the mob buffs too (though in fairness, I think that one was true at one point, many many moons ago), etc.