Biospark

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I want to keep this friendly, but as expected, someone ALWAYS has to start the poking jibes.

[/ QUOTE ]It's a jibe to let you know that your opinion is empty? I'm telling you why you're not making headway, why nobody is taking you seriously - because you're working from a foregone and erronous postulate.

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You dont know me, or my gaming experience, so dont insult me if you are able to prove a valid point.

[/ QUOTE ]'You're stupid' is an insult. 'You don't know what you're talking about' is an observation. And you don't know what you're talking about.

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Well, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am.

Some people have valid points for their side... Like Umbral,
Your Candor and dismissive comments indicate that you have nothing to offer, but certainly enjoy demeaning a valid argument.

Again, if you care to join a discussion, I am all ears.
But if you just want to insult (Yeah I said Insult), then who should we take seriously ?

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As an example: If it were unbalanced for say, a FF defender to be able to buff himself for solo play with Deflection, Insulation AND Dispersion. WHY then is it somehow balanced that he can do JUST THAT to 7 other people in a team.

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Simple: it's balanced by the fact that you're doing it to other people. Personal buffs in CoX are universally weaker than AoE buffs, which are universally weaker than ST granted buffs. It's part of the game design. If any character were suddenly allowed to target themselves with their ST granted buffs, there wouldn't be a point to grouping. It's a mechanic put in place to encourage group play. If you're playing support, you're better at supporting others than you are at supporting yourself.

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Umbral, I have heard this argument many times.
I guess if its the way they want the game to be, who am I to say otherwise.

But I disagree with one statement, and thats the need to encourage group play. Every game (MMO) that I have participated in, has not needed to do anything to encourage group play except provide rewards that can ONLY be gotten by a group. Its actually quite simple.

And even if they didnt. One group can accomplish anything FASTER and more EASILY than any single solo character.

Its just been my experience that sometimes you cannot get a decent group. Sometimes you dont have the free time to start a group. and even times when you dont really feel like grouping.

What happens then ?

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I am not sure why you think it makes my point moot though.

[/ QUOTE ]Because it's one of the many ways in which you indicate you have no idea what you're talking about.

For there to be a spectrum of team-agnostic options (scrappers), there should in turn be a related alternative, heavily team-reliant options. Someone has to be the worst at soloing - and since they can still solo at all, your mantra that they 'should' solo faster is built on an entirely emotive non-argument. You demand an imperative and don't justify it.

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Talen_Lee

I want to keep this friendly, but as expected, someone ALWAYS has to start the poking jibes.

You dont know me, or my gaming experience, so dont insult me if you are able to prove a valid point.

Just as you point to your opinion as the REASON for the way it is. I HAVE MY reason for what I believe. It is NOT necessary to say a Non-group activity spawns a certain AT or a group Activity spawns yet another AT. Fact is (and proven OVER and OVER in these games) some sets (ATs, classes, etc...) will solo better and some will team better. BUT there has NEVER been an MMO that I have played where TEAMING is NOT a preferrable way to play. In fact in EVERY game, TEAMING is the ONLY way to get some of the best rewards and therefore is going to happen regardless of solo ability or attitude (That you seem to be suggesting).

There is NO HARM in everyone soloing decently (Albeit at different capabilties) because TEAMING will ALWAYS be BETTER. Force multipliers, Tactics, game design, whatever the labels you care to use.

So I REJECT your notion of SOLO (team-agnostic) or SUPPORT (Team-reliant) and say that it is simply a fact of Game genesis. I purport that these levels CAN and often DO get adjusted to create more even and enjoyable gameplay across all spectrums.

Insult me if you wish, but you assume too much. Or maybe you enjoy the 'Mask' that the internet provides and allows you to lash out with impunity

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The question is NOT whether they should solo like gods, but whether they should solo BETTER than they currently can ?

My answer is absolutely YES.
If your answer is the opposite then you and will just have to disagree. No hard feelings for me.

But dont think I am gonna post my ideas AGAIN just to be made fun of and called a newb.

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The real question that most people that disagree with changes as a whole to the AT/game structure ask in response (and are never actually addressed simply because the question renders your point largely moot) is whether the changes that would make some of the defender primaries (strangely enough, those that excel at teaming) more effective at soloing would imbalance everything else within the complex workings of the game.

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I understand your point Umbral regarding whether a change could unbalance a powerset. This is a real concern. One that I am sure game Developers consider at great length before they make changes.

I am not sure why you think it makes my point moot though.
Unless you are assuming (Like many objectors DO) that ANY change WOULD make the set overpowered.
That notion to me is fatalistic at best. I personally am confident in both the DEVS abilities and my own judgement that it is not only possible, but would not unbalance anything.

As an example: If it were unbalanced for say, a FF defender to be able to buff himself for solo play with Deflection, Insulation AND Dispersion. WHY then is it somehow balanced that he can do JUST THAT to 7 other people in a team.
You might say, well he could then also add pools to make this somehow CRAZY unfair. But what about that INV tank that just got these buffs ON TOP of his AT defenses AND perhaps Pools that he took.

Its very hard to convince me that 7 other people can enjoy HUGE rewards that I provide, but cannot also provide to myself. And Further that changing that will somehow totally unbalance the set.

PC_Guy

I have offered specific suggestions in the past. And was met with the same disdain and resistance from the Community.
If you really want to be constructive, I could offer them again, but I am not confident that it would result in anything different THIS time.

But if you search this thread you will see that MANY veterans Admit that some primary powersets are rather poor at soloing.
Even YOU can name them.

The question is NOT whether they should solo like gods, but whether they should solo BETTER than they currently can ?

My answer is absolutely YES.
If your answer is the opposite then you and I will just have to disagree. No hard feelings for me.

But dont think I am gonna post my ideas AGAIN just to be made fun of and called a newb.

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Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.

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Just to riff on this:

Defenders as a group don't seem to have any real problems. Certain defender sets, however, probably do.

I think I said it many, many pages ago, but the devs have /never/ done a balance pass on (de)buff sets, and they probably should since they've done so on direct damage, controls, damage mitigation (i.e., tanker primaries), and entire ATs (blaster, stalkers, and doms).

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Yeah I would pretty much lose faith in the AT if they went thru the powersets and instead of boosting sets like Empathy, we got Rad, Dark, Storm, etc... NERFED so they too could solo poorly. ::::Shivverrr:::

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Guys it really shouldn't matter what support primary you take, if the damage is way too low on every blast set that isn't Sonic Blast...

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I think it's clear there's not a consensus on that matter.

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Yep, Thats the impression I have gotten after 4+ years.
Personally, global changes like more DMG, more HPs or a better Inherent would be nice ( I certainly would not complain), however I dont think they are going to solve the real Defender balance issues.

What I have always advocated (and been shouted down for) is to let ALL defenders defend themselves as well as their team. I dont mean EVERY power needs to be fixed, but targeted changes to CERTAIN powers in CERTAIN powersets, will help low level (and High End) Defenders considerably.
And they will not break the game.

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Interesting choice of Secondary STRATO_NEXUS

Lots of early attacks to spam dmg and heal as needed.
Not knowing much about Archery set (never tried it, too busy with Willpower) do you get a secondary effect like -DEF on those shots, or any KB ?

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I did indeed choose it because Blazing Arrow comes early. My FF/Nrg that I leveled mostly solo had Power Burst early as well. I do figure the control of Energy Blast in combination with the tier three early helped me a lot.

Low level Archery has no secondary effect on the enemies (Explosive Arrow gets a 50% chance of KB, but that is not until lvl 20). It does however get increased Accuracy, which is very useful in the low levels (but fades in usefulness after SOs/IOs).



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I decided to give your planned EMP/ARCH a try last night to get a "Feel" for what you were aiming for ( :/ sorry for the pun). I made it to 12th fairly easily with the main issues being Lost mezzers (which are pain for any AT at those levels) . This build reminded me alot of how low level blasters survive. Steady stream of dmg to down mobs as fast as possible while maintaining optimum position.

I will try some more things out. Thanks STRATO for your input. Seems that I may have overlooked one factor in my defender builds of the past. And that is this; I have always avoided building Hasten into my builds, cause I am not sold on EVERY toon taking Fitness and Speed. And I have always used basic recharge to tighten up attack chains. However, I think with a Defender (especially at lower levels), Getting a REALLY steady stream of attacks as fast as possible COULD improve the road to 22 alot. I usually try and work in 3 ST and 1 special on all my toons before 20, but I dont worry so much about how tight the attack chain is, just whether it feels right. Gonna have to play with numbers more I think.

Any Ideas out there on Energy Blast attack chains PRE-SO ?

Interesting choice of Secondary STRATO_NEXUS

Lots of early attacks to spam dmg and heal as needed.
Not knowing much about Archery set (never tried it, too busy with Willpower) do you get a secondary effect like -DEF on those shots, or any KB ?

Thats a very valid point Captain_Wacky
And the answer is a resounding NO ! There should be differences. Perhaps my expirament should be limited to just defenders. Because, one of my core problems with the AT is WHY should a RAD or DARK Defender be so radically better at solo than an Empath or Sonic, but yet still bring all the defender GOODNESS to a team.

I dont EXPECT to solo like a scrapper. But My EMPATHY Defender is not even CLOSE to as capable as my RAD defender at HEROIC missions.

I ask YOU, Is that Right ? or Fair ? worth making some adjustments to help that powerset solo ?

I think its worth looking at.

And question 2. If they buffed the Defender's ability to solo on these less capable soloing sets, would you object ? Or be happy that your defender brothers got some loving from the Devs ?

G_Tanker

I dont mind being quoted, but be careful how you paraphrase what I posted. You changed the essence of the sentence by leaving out the first clause.

This is what I actually said :

I dont doubt that a level 50 fully tricked-out Defender does fine in his own missions. Nor do I feel all Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels.

As a point of reference, I have played many defenders to SO level at least and have abandoned each of them for more or less the same reason. --> soloing was really un-spectacular

Defender A) Forcefield-Rad , deleted in the first month after launch before even making level 20. Reason: massive death rates. Conclusion : Defenders are not a beginner's AT and/or must be grouped to work

Defender B) Dedicated group Defender Empathy-Rad, survived until level 22 by being ONLY used in a small team setting. after team fell apart, tried to respec and turn him into a capable soloer. Finally deleted as I would rather stab Forks in my head than solo an Empath .... EVER

Defender (C) Radiation-Electric, Hey this one worked. Great group character and capable of soloing. Retired because I did not like Anchor Toggles. Decided to try a defender with fewer anchors.

Defender (D) Dark-Electric, Once again, this one worked, fewer anchors, same basic success. But retired eventually as well. Too slow getting thru missions. I remember taking 45min-1hour on some Faultline missions solo. My scrapper could blow thru the SAME missions at more than twice the speed.

My last two defenders were both inspired by Dr.Mike's great guide on self-defense.
I did a FF/NRG and a Sonic/Nrg and levelled em both to 22

They were not as bad as an empath for solo, actually the FF defender did halfway decent. The sonic fell flat on his [censored] against Status mobs like the Lost. But once again they both FAILED to feel even remotely Heroic solo.

Not important to you ? Fine
Dont hate, but for me, being able to solo IS Important.

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Point out something you think needs to be achievable by a character than cannot be done by a particular defender powerset combination, and we'll either show you how it can be done or why it isn't intended to be done by all solo characters.

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I think a good test to show what Ultimo is trying to illustrate (and the main reason my main Ranged toon is a Device Blaster instead of a defender) would be something like the following:

Take a sampling of power combinations from several ATs,
especially Defender and level them from 1-20 using the following Guidelines.

1) Lowest Difficulty settings
2) Solo play only, choose the same origin and do the exact same mission arcs.
3) No influence gained from twinking, only TOs and DOs, no IOs or sets
4) NO POOL POWERS

You then need to judge each set based on the following factors;

1) Time spent getting to level 20
2) Number of deaths doing so

You will find your answers here.

I dont doubt that a level 50 fully tricked-out Defender does fine in his own missions. Nor do I feel all Defender powersets suffer from what Ultimo is expressing, but there is a serious disconnect with CERTAIN power sets in their ability to solo, especially at lower levels. If that is how the game is intended to be, so be it, but I want to play a HERO. Sometimes you act alone, sometimes you band together for a great event.

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Interesting then, that so many De Fen Der characters can't De Fend themselves...

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Ultimo, I applaud your efforts to enlighten and/or encourage real change to the Defender AT. I have come here with the same questions and ideas as well. But the fact is, there are alot of Hard-core, Long-time defenders that do not see anything wrong with their AT. For me its sad, because I came to this game shortly after launch and rolled my first shiny new Hero as a Forcefield Defender, only to find that his best stuff could only be put on teammates.

After all this time, I still believe that Defenders NEED improvement. Heck they used to share the same level of solo frustration as pre-pet controllers, but Look at them controllers now !! They got a decent Inherent and VOILA, they actually feel Heroic solo (WITHOUT PETS).

I hope one day the devs realize that they only need to do a small change and Defenders will join the ranks of real Heroes (ONES that SOLO WELL and bring Awesomeness to teams), but until then, you should think about the movie SKY HIGH and realize that some people take being Sidekicks VERY seriously