Biospark
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Quote:I guess thats just an example of where we are different in our game views.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I also just happen to think this a decent weakness and one that defenders currently have to plan for, therefore it would be a big playstyle change if they could ignore the issue. I'd prefer to keep the playstyle similar, with mitigation being active and thought needing to be put into how to approach the spawn, as opposed to scrapperlock. Its also nice that this is an area where a defender/corruptor is dependent on a tank to keep mezzes off them or another buffer to protect them.
Although I dont advocate that Status effects be something that are trivial, I think now with the inherent given to blasters, Defenders stand out (Some powersets) as the most effected of the Hero side ATs versus Status.
From my own personal experience with Empathy, I cannot even count how often I have been in a situation where the team needed my heals, but I was sleeping on the job.
When I switched over to a Mind/Emp controller I had less issues, because I could be more pre-emptive against mob types I knew were going to target me once I started healing.
Lets not even get into the many deaths resulting from, and immediately after using Absorb Pain.
Bottom line (from my viewpoint) is Defenders are now the ONLY AT (Hero-side) that doesnt have a consistent level of defense versus Status (Self-defense). Scrappers/Tankers get resistances. Blasters can still function with some of their more Core dmg attacks. Controllers pre-empt Status with their own. But only certain powersets of Defenders can protect themselves (even if they can offer protection to their whole team, like empathy).
I guess this would not be such an issue for me, if I didnt have such a nagging desire to play an Empath and still be able to solo (Pre-Epic pools)
Psyonico ! You are Awesome !
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One thing that comes to my mind is this.
Take a controller out and try to defeat a spawn using only your primary set.
Then take a Defender out and try the same using only your blasts.
The controller will be complete and fully capable of soloing, while the Defender will be in serious need of His Primary in order to compete. -
Quote:100% Agree.Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Good and well, but when a kinetic easily caps a team's damage, and resistance debuffs scale sharply down in usefulness against higher level enemies, I'd say that the importance of +dmg/-res is a little bit overestimated. That overestimation may explain why defenders add huge amounts of damage to a team on paper, but in practice more people roll controllers for farming and other forms of steamroll teaming instead.
I dont think a Defender on a team is in serious need of help.
SOLO is a completely different story (For some Powersets)
I know, I know, Defenders are team-oriented. But so are Tankers, yet I have had very minor issues soloing every Tanker set that I have tried. This is not true of Defenders. -
Quote:Hehe sometimes you should just go with your first instinct.Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Oddly enough they did start out with 4 ATs. Controllers were added late.
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Quote:Hello StratoNexus,Originally Posted by StratoNexus
This idea I do not like. It would change the current playstyle and it would take away a bit from FF, Sonic, Traps, and to a lesser extent Rad. Therefore, I can only be wild-eyed, fanatical about the modest increases in Hit Points and Damage. Just say no to defender inherent status protection!
I certainly would not turn down more HPs and DMG
Not sure how this status would take away from the sets you mentioned. They would still have the ability to provide that status protection to others. My idea would help only the Defender personally. It would offer some very helpful protection to sets like Sonic, Empathy and oddly, Kinetics. -
Hello Folks,
As I was playing my newest Defender last night, I had a thought regarding Vigilance.
I know everyone is dividing up into camps regarding whether we need +rech, +dmg, +HP etc...
But I think most would agree that some additional Status protection would be pretty nice.
And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that some of my biggest debacles have been related to being put to sleep while trying to do my Hero 'thing'.
What if Defenders were given 'Boss' level resistance to status ?
Scrappers get x2 dmg on crits, Controllers get x2 dmg on containment.
We are Vigilant and watchful during battle and require 2 applications of a status effect in order to be controlled.
Any thoughts ? -
Quote:I think that I agree with this concept Robin.Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
I'm not suggesting that either their primary powers or secondary powers are under-powered. I'm suggesting the AT as a whole is under-represented. Take a look at Phil's surveys in his thread comparing controllers to defenders.
The point I try to make is not that either of their sets should be made more powerful. I'm trying to say that defenders are built wrong. Giving them buff/debuff primaries and ranged secondaries is an inherent problem because both of those set types are already available to their competition. The only other hero types that have that are Tanks and Scrappers and those are so different due to HP, DMG and inherent powers that the overlap isn't nearly as great. Additionally, the melee combat is so vibrant and active that there is much more room for more players to enjoy it. When talking about villains, you have brutes and stalkers which are massively different for a ton of reasons but none of the others have the overlap problem on both sets types. When allowing cross-overs, this problem will be aggravated slightly by corruptors and masterminds.
The solution is not, in my opinion, to buff any part of defenders or nerf any part of any other AT. The solution, which I'm sure is well beyond the resources the devs will consider worth investing, is to completely alter the defender secondary to make them unique.
The primary power sets for defenders, with a few exceptions, all have powers that work best at close range. These powers are important to the benefit of the team as well as the defender. Therefore giving them a ranged secondary set is inappropriate in my opinion. Their secondaries should be replaced with close-range sets which combine offense and defense in a way similar to how the dominators' secondary combines ranged and melee offense. A couple personal shields, a utility or two, and a few mediocre attacks would be much more than enough to get the AT up in the front lines where they would be much more useful tactically as well as more fun for a larger number of players (hence this game being called City of Scrappers for so long). This would have the added benefit of making them much more soloable without making them over-powered since any overlap between their primary powers and secondary powers would benefit only themselves and not their team which is where they really shine.
Robin
I would go so far as to say that they should have done 4 ATs to start with.
Scrapper/Tankers much as they are now, but perhaps giving 1-2 ranged type powers in their attacks somewhere. Instead of having to wait for epics.
Blasters/Defenders could have been mirrors with their focuses being Ranged attacks like Scrappers/Tankers have melee. Throw in 1-2 melee attacks in their assault sets.
Then the secondary could have been various powersets with control, debuff and buff powers.
Doing this they would be free to adjust the buff/debuff numbers and dmg numbers more freely. A 'Controller' would simply be a Blaster/Defender that chose certain 'Controllery' powers and focused his build around the concept. -
Quote:I am not sure, but I think the reason this was done was more because -res combined with other debuffs and near blaster damage made defenders able to do things that NONE of the other ATs could do.Originally Posted by BlackSly
At one time Defender damage was lowered to keep them separate enough from Blasters.
Granted, this was only really true of certain powerset combos.
I remember before the defense changes, Blasters could cap defense to all positions.Quote:That's especially true given that a Blaster can cap Ranged Defense now, giving them some defensive ability, whereas years ago the defensive abilities of Defenders were way above those of Blasters. Granted, Blasters did need some improvement.
And add in Device blasters stacking Smoke grenade and Blasters were pretty hard to hit, if they built in defensive powers.
The big problem I see with a global +dmg increase is that it does not discriminate between powersets. So Powersets like Rad or Kinetics which dont seem to have a damage dealing issue will get an increase. And sets like Empathy and FF will benefit, but there will still be a performance gap between them and Kinetics (or RAD).Quote:So in conclusion, increasing Defender damage seems possible without taking over Blaster roles. However, don't imagine that you can discuss Defender damage increases and IGNORE their -Res / +Dam powers. Any damage increase should be done considering the effects of their potential -Res powers... it will not do to increase their damage and have Kins, Rads, Storms, TA, Dark, etc, do comparable damage after applying their debuffs, with the same powers, as Blasters.
Not saying I would be unhappy with a damage increase. If thats going to help all Defenders, great ! But I would rather see FF get some kind of -res power (Forcebolt maybe) and Empathy get some kind of boost defensively. -
Quote:Hmm, well if thats at the Heroic settings. Could be too many permutations to try and nail down any kind of curve. Especially if Mob-type plays a factor.Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Get some friends to help do the data and even better if you find people who can stealth missions and just grab as many spawns as possible. Again, even solo I can get 2-3 minions, 0-3 minions and a LT., a boss, boss 0-2 minions, boss with an LT. and at least one minion, etc.
The behavior you described, I have seen on out-door groups, and come to think of it, DE dont seem to follow normal spawn patterns.
Oh well, time for some testing. -
In order of creation. All but the first made it to at least level 22
Original Account
FF/RAD - - - deleted (first character created, actually only made it to 13th)
EMP/RAD
RAD/ELEC - - - deleted (immediately regretted this one, Had the name Meltdown (May 04))
STORM/ELEC
DARK/NRG - - - Highest level to date WarMage is level 28
New Account
RAD/ELEC - - - Biospark (first character created on my new account)
SONIC/NRG - - - Deleted with malice
FF/NRG - - - Deleted
EMP/ELEC - - - Biospark deleted and re-created -
Thanks AMY for the response,
The main thing I am trying to determine is whether the progression is linear or not.
And what type of curve shape it has.
I do not believe its linear. At least my in-game experience does not reflect that.
But then again, I dont spend any time counting mobs in a spawn when I am teaming.
My best guess is that it goes something like this;
If Minions have a rating of 1, Lts = 2, Boss = 3
Solo spawns would have a rating(strength) of 3. So 3 Minions, 1 Lt.+1 minion or 1 Boss
Adding group members (if linear) would add 3 for each additional person untill an 8-man team would have a strength Rating of 24. That seems a little high to me.
I am guessing that the 8-man rating is closer to 15 on normal Heroic mode.
A linear progression would be pretty difficult for a pre-SO team.
Then, of course, you have the difficulty settings which further adjust spawns.
But for my purposes, I just need to know what type of basic Curve exists at the Lowest Heroic settings.
I will probably have to do some testing in game, but its hard to convince folks to stand around while you gather this kind of data. Or... I could just wait for I16
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oops ! double post
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Thanks Umbral
Kinda silly of me, but I was able to easily verify those in game on the new combat interface.
Any ideas on where to find the first answer ?
I am trying to figure a rough idea of how the game sets spawn sizes in relation to the number of team members. -
Hello Folks,
doing a bit of my own analysis here, but have a few questions that I cannot readily find the answers to.
1) How does the game determine spawn sizes in relation to group size.
I feel that someone has done a study of this, but may have been a long time ago.
2) I want to verify if my numbers are accurate. 0-100% Endurance is 60sec base ?
and is it 240sec base for Health ?
Thanks in advance -
Quote:Its the reason I dont have a Defender thats 41-50 yet.Originally Posted by Folonius
I'm not opposed to bumping their damage, I just don't agree that underplayed = underpowered.
But I have a great desire to play one to that level range.
I am only one person, but I doubt I am unusual in my game experience.
Just saying
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Quote:I concede that point TurboOriginally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The problem is some sets will always be behind if you are considering every support set when adjusting damage modifiers because every set is designed to have different total amounts of -res/+dmg. The sets having different strengths from each other is kind of the point of having multiple sets. You can't go around considering specific sets when you're comparing AT modifiers and trying to balance to VERY similar ATs like corruptors and defenders. You can however fix the damage/buff modifiers so that the majority of the sets get balanced and then adjust damage/buff scalars up and down according to specific set flavor afterwards.
Raising the defender and corruptor damage and bringing them closer to being balanced in their trade offs (trading damage<->support advantages equally) would help to better set the stage for balancing a lot of the inconsistent numbers that plague support sets.
Of course, then you are still looking at another round of adjustments (In my book) to bring the less optimal soloers within an acceptable range. I cannot argue with the numbers being presented regarding AT to AT comparison. For me its still about the significant difference in solo-ability between primary powersets in the first 30 levels. -
Hey Phil,
Just a personal perspective on your study. On my server (Protector), the population changes during the course of each day (Time zones and all that), so each slice of a day could yield completely different results.
For example, I work LATE shift west coast. So when I log on around 1AM-3AM (most days) the server is very quiet. What I find (and perhaps you would expect to find) is alot of folks who are solo-ing. Nature of the time-frame. Perhaps also the reason I place more emphasis on being ABLE to solo well. More so than others might (who operate in better time-frames on their servers.)
Something to consider.
P.S. I find that there is often no clear right or wrong. But lots of grey. -
Quote:Very Good Point. Empathy and Forcefields stand out in this regard.Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Its dangerous to improve the base values of all sets when all but two sets have the ability to make those attacks even stronger. Would be less risky to just give those two sets the tools to make their blasts stronger.
Which is another reason against a global dmg increase. These two sets will STILL be behind the other primaries. -
Quote:Hehe this build looks eerily like my Energy/Device blaster. Tough/Weave, Hover, 3 Thunderstrikes in the same three attacks above, 2 Zephyrs, No Steadfast yet, have not found it for any reasonable amount.Originally Posted by DrMike2000
A sample solo Empath/Energy build for what we have right now.
Any Empath can do something like this with the dual build system and still retain a team-friendly other build. Use the fact you only take 3 primary powers to your advantage and take pool powers to boost your defence.
1 Healing Aura (9)(9)(17) - 4 Heal/End or Heal/Rech IOs
1 Power Bolt (3)(5)(7)(17)(23) - Thunderstrike set
2 Power Blast (3)(5)(7)(15)(23) - Thunderstrike set
4 Energy Torrent - single accuracy, used for knockback on groups.
6 Hover (33)(33) - Blessing of the Zephyr set
8 Boxing
10 Power Burst (11)(11)(13)(13)(15) - Thunderstrike set
12 Swift
14 Tough - Steadfast Res/Def IO
16 Health
18 Recovery Aura (19)(19) - Recharge
20 Stamina
22 Fly
24 Weave (25)(25)(29)(29)(31) - Red Fortune
26 Regen Aura (27)(27) - Recharge
28 Manouvers (31)(31)(33)(34)(34) - Red Fortune
30 Aim
32 Power Push or Snipe?
35 Explosive Blast
38 Nova....
You get 19.1% Defence to everything from Manouvers, Weave, Hover and the Steadfast IO.
Set Bonuses make that 38% vs Ranged, 22% vs AoE, 35% vs Energy and Negative.
Two purple pills cap your defence to everything for EB fights.
Tough can be turned on while Recovery Aura is running, or if you're facing high burst damage, but is mainly there for the Steadfast IO and more defence.
The only expensive IOs are the Blessing of the Zephyr set and the Steadfast IO. Drop the BotZ if you cant afford it. Each +Def Io will add +0.5% defence, Maybe one of them and two flight speeds?
The Steadfast IO is yours for only 125 Merits, easily obtainable by doing story arcs, and well worth getting.
Between your high defence, spot healing and +Regen for tough fights, and knockback (or other defensive secondary effects) you should be Ok to survive, as long as you pick your fights.
eg Warriors are bad news with mainly smashing and lethal melee attacks. CoT with lots of ranged attacks and negative energy are easier to fight.
I use Medicine pool (Aid Other/Aid Self) and Caltrops/Smoke Grenade for added defense. Add in the Blaster inherent and the new toggle-suppression and I am pretty solid.
With Dual-Builds, I may have to just try harder.
Making a solo-able defender has always seemed like putting off your group stuff.
Imagine a level 20 Empath getting into a group without any ALLY powers. /chagrin
Oh and definitely PowerPush over Snipe for me. I have respecced both ways and for as many times as I wished I had the snipe, there were alot more times where the Powerpush was more useful. -
Quote:Absolutely. But there is a hole in that defense. And unfortunately it rears its ugly sleepy head quite alotOriginally Posted by Quaver
Did you take Sonic Dispersion? That provides mez protection..?
And I would say there's nothing soft about FF/Energy ;-)
I guess 'soft' is just the term I used. Semantics really. Bottom line is FF and Energy have great syngery.
And KB is mitigation,control, defense whatever term you prefer.
If I were to try FF again, Energy may be overkill combined with FF, so Sonic or Dark might work better. -
Quote:Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Hi Biospark.
I dunno if there's a shortage of Empaths out there, is there?
I agree that the 8 person team is an extreme outlier, but most of what I described can happen spontaneously during normal gameplay ,with any two balanced Empaths (ie ones with some attacks) without any special build concessions. If they decide to buff each other the entire team can be rolling in double Fortitude while the Empaths enjoy their own demigod status.
Your suggestion isnt a bad one, it just needs a corresponding take from somewhere. Currently, Empathy's healing power is divided between Healing Aura, Heal Other and Absorb Pain, which is two powers not useable solo and one that is. So it wouldnt be too bad to buff up Healing Aura a bit at the expense of Heal Other maybe? Maybe increase Heal Other's recharge perhaps? I'm not sure.
Absorb Pain is probably best left alone as the "Quick -Lord Recluse just hit the tank" heal (from what I hear).
On the other hand, I'd be opposed to any changes that made it advantageous to fire off Healing Aura consistently when the team is at full health. +Regen, +Damage, mez resistance would all do this.
So I'm not totally convinced that Healing Aura needs a buff for the soloist.
Consideration also needs to be given to solo Controllers with pets, who can get some mileage out of Fortitude and AB. Do they get the same buff? If not are solo Mind/Emp Controllers getting the shaft?
Other than that, Empathy enjoys a rather special niche as the "I'm going to buff my best friends" set. Most other buffing sets (FF, Cold, Kinetics) can scale seamlessly to buff an entire team. Empathy can't, and so adds in the extra decision making of who to give what to. As a balance, its buffs are amongst some of the best in the game. Empathy is a poor solo-er, but enjoys top spot on small teams and duos (and dedeicated superteams) in compensation.
As for other sets, I think Sonic Resonance really needs some help. Its a nice team contributor, but not spectactular. It pays the price of being a poor solo-er without getting enough back in return. Empathy gets a lot of ally only powers as part of the set design, Sonic seems to get a few just because thats what someone felt like on the day. Disruption Field and Sonic Repulsion, for example, seem to be ally-centred just because we hadn't tried that before.
Its funny you mentioned Sonic Thats one of the other sets that tops my list of needs help. I used your self-defense guide and ran a Sonic/Energy and a FF/Energy both to level 22+. The sonic defender burned several respecs and in the end I had the same results. Fighting Smash/Lethal non-mezzers and I was a GOD. anything else, especially mezzers and I was waking up in the hospital more than I would care to.
I DID learn a new respect for FF though. FF+Energy blasts = soft control hehe -
Quote:I agree with you in that this solution would be really strong.Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The best solution for making empathy more solo-friendly, is to add a self-only fortitude buff into Recovery Aura and a self-only adrenaline boost buff in regen aura. Yes it's a really strong and late-blooming combination but Healing Aura is the only other power you could even use while solo and it certainly would help empaths out in teams higher than 5 people.
However, I really feel that something sooner in an empaths career would be better.
Hehe, with only 3 powers to choose from, kinda narrows it down some. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Quaver
It's just a bit disappointing looking at your power tray, knowing that there are at least a couple of powers you can't play with. I think maybe the disappointment is amplified by our inherent ALSO being unavailable solo.
I second that ! -
Quote:Hello Dr. Mike,Originally Posted by DrMike2000
But you cant do that without making grouped Empaths even more insanely powerful.
Having some powersets overperform in teams and underperform solo is not a bad thing - its another choice we can make at character creation.
I can see your examples, but they seem to be the extremes and not normal play.
Although I am sure that there ARE people that have put together teams of 8-empaths, do you think everyone would role an empath if they got a little boost to their self-defense.
I am skeptical. I think it would convince more people to try one, but they would likely find that Empathy is still not the best solo-platform, just better than before. -
Quote:Wow, this brings back memories for me. My SG leader and my main team leader levelled an INV/SS tanker right after game launch. By the time we hit our 30s I was playing a Mind/EMP controller. I have seen this with my own eyes. I began to feel like nearly all my mitigation tools were completely unnecessary. And more often than not, my healing was the best tool I brought to the team.Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Of course, simply having a good tanker causes defenders the same issue as support stacking since the tanker is damage mitigating through his shields, making damage mitigation from support sets rapidly less valuable and damage capability rapidly more valuable.