Biospark

I agree with this, and go one better. Using your primaries seems to be even worse than attacks. Currently I am playing an Empath and even with 2 End reduction in Healing Aura, this uses more endurance than my attacks. Yet it is my PRIMARY power.

0.75 dmg mod, 25% more HPs and rework Vigilance to be a stacking 8% global endurance savings (up to 5 times) and see how well we perform.
I no longer believe this will over-power ANY defender set.

Hello StratoNexus,

I have been playing Defenders alot lately, and just to mix things up I broke out my Main Blaster (Energy/Devices) and my main Scrapper (MA/WP), just to remind me what they could do.

I think that I finally agree with you on this suggestion.

The main issues that defenders have (as compared to playing other ATs) is;

A) Status effects
B) Kill speed is on the slow side (not necassarily a problem, just a comparison)
C) Endurance Use (even after Stamina is heavier than other ATs)

Well, more HPs doesnt do much about the three things I listed, but I agree with your assessment that Defenders (Unlike Blasters and Controllers) tend to live closer to the action and could use the extra HPs for teaming. The argument by some that certain powersets dont really need a HP boost, just means that those powersets will not notice any difference really, but sets like Empathy and Kinetics should benefit quite nicely.

As far as the increase in damage base, It WILL help in all of the 3 items I listed above.
Taking down mobs faster reduces the risk of status (especially repeated effects).
Obviously Kill speed will improve, but here is the big one for me, Endurance usage will be lessened considerably.
Killing with even 1 less blast could make a large impact on endurance issues.

The final straw that brought me over to your side occurred when reading a post about ALL the changes that have occurred AFTER Defender ratios were nerfed to 0.65 (Specifically "Enhancement Diversification" and "Global Defense Reduction"). I realized that your modest increase would certainly not bring defenders back to their hey-day of game launch, but would add quite a nice dose of "FUN" in playing them.
I realize that these 2 events hit all ATs, but I am also willing to say that Defenders (Who should be the best at defending themselves) got side-swiped by these changes.

So, Thanks for posting this idea, along with all the others who agree with it.

P.S. I also happen to agree with others regarding Defender / Tanker numbers.
I would be happy with the damage mod being returned to its original 0.75 value.
And the HPs restorred as well to their original amount.
I also still believe that a good Vigilance change would be a stacking endurance reduction triggered off our blasts.
This would further lessen the endurance issues at the same time as convincing more defenders to use their blasts.

Thanks Perwira,

I really appreciate build advice like this.
Currently, I am at 24, amd will likely hit 25 on my next session. I have generic IOs (all 25) on my powers, and am still debating on when to start the power drain tactics. Up to this point, I have focused on Blaster tactics, using a steady stream of damage from a good attack chain and staying mobile in combat to keep as few villains on me at a time while I pick them off. Air Superiority is what I am using for problematic Villains (Bosses, Lts).

I will come back from time-to-time to let you know how it progresses.

I dont consider myself a Defender PRO, but I have played this combination twice over the last 5 years. Once in the very begining (May-June 04) and more recently after returning to the game from a 2+ year absence. Also I can only offer advice during the first 20 or so levels, so take that for whats its worth.

As far as synergy, Electric blast's secondary effect is rather unspectacular at first, especially if your like me and slot ACC first, damage next, and then later fine-tune other things into the attacks. That alone is a big reason why many shy away from Electric blasts.

Radiation on the other hand offers ALL KINDS of goodies, and the best part is you get ALOT of basics for survival and grouping VERY early.
You could say that Radiation is a great pairing for Electric because of its added controls that become available like Lingering Radiation, Choking Cloud and eventually EMP. But these added controls would help ANY secondary, so once again not a particular boost to Electric blast.

Some keys to playing both sets can be found in the guide section, but I will point out a couple of things that I have found that are helpful playing this combo.

1) Get Radiation Infection as soon as possible. I took the AoE Heal at level one and CB just because I like healing as a defense. At level 2 I took Lightning Bolt to speed up fights, and then RI at 4th. I would not take it any later than 6th.

2) Skip Enervating Field until after Stamina. Its very tempting to take it sooner, but its much more expensive as a toggle, and once you hit SOs and have Stamina, its very nice to have. Before that, it can drain you dry quite fast. On the flip-side though, if you mostly team, you can take it earlier because its very helpful to have both these toggles on a team.
Additionally, you should (once you have both of these toggles) anchor them to different enemies. Teams will continually drop your anchors before the fight is over, so having them on different targets means you can be bringing up a new anchor, but still have the team under the umbrella of the other toggle.

3) Short Circuit and endurance drain strategy seems very nice, but from what I understand is a late-blooming tactic (since I have yet to suceed at building a sapper character). You are welcome to try building in a sapper tactic, but I would skip that strategy early and rely on radiation until you start having lots of extra slots and more freedom to choose powers.

4) Electricity has only 2 Single target blasts, and this creates a problem building an attack chain. I am a big fan of Air Superiority for filling in on Electric, but it can get rather annoying taking AS on EVERY character, so consider other options like Flurry, Veteran reward Sands of Mu, or even Boxing (if you plan on taking Tough/Weave).
But here is another option which I personally shoot for. Turn Ball Lightning into a usuable third attack. You will need to slot ACC and DMG just like a regular attack, but that still leaves room for 1-2 more slots. I have taken Hasten on all my RAD/ELEC characters so I usually slot Ball Lightning at 1ACC, 3DMG, 2END. Pre-stamina this is very hard to pull off, but once Stamina kicks in, you will be surprised what AIM+BL+LB+CB+AS can do. With the decent Endurance Recovery that you get from 3-slotted Stamina and AM, you should be able to throw Ball Lightning around like crazy (if slotted for End reduction + Hasten)

Check out some guides for both sets and have fun. Its a good Character combination.

Thanks for your support Robin

Its funny you mentioned changing from Defenders to Controllers, cause thats exactly what I did back in the beginning, even before containment.

Its also why you dont hear my voice amongst the many asking for more DMG. Although I would welcome it as an improvement, I really dont want to see happen to "Blasters" what has happened to "Defenders". If you could play a character that could deal 'near-blaster' level damage, but with much greater safety (Defender primaries), we would begin to see a player-base move from Blasting to Defenders. They would feel the effects and you would see "Loyal" Blaster fans chanting 'Nerf Defenders' continuously.

No Thanks

Well, I may not be the average representation of players, but I have soloed EBs with my Blasters and my Scrappers, but failed with Defenders, Controllers and Tanks.

Could be I just have not figured out how to balance the powers, slotting and tactics yet, but from the 'feel of it' on many different toons now, I would be willing to say that not all AT/combinations can beat EBs.

I am, of course, making a generalization based on my own experiences, but thats how I feel at this point in time about the game.

As far as commenting on whether thats working as intended, I would say that its not.
I agree, in a reverse way, with what some have said. Instead of saying;

"If One AT/Combination can do it, then everyone should"

I believe that if One AT/combination is 'Incapable' of doing it, then perhaps they all should be incapable."

From the begining, I have always felt that "special' Villains like AVs and EBs should require a team. This is, for me, 'part and parcel' of playing any MMO. If you make the entire spectrum of the game able to be soloed (by anyone) you have less incentive to form groups. There should be "solo content" and "team content" within the game.

"Solo" content SHOULD be solo-able by any player. Perhaps some combinations would require more effort and trial-and-error, but eventually possible.

"Team" content SHOULD NEVER be solo-able by any player. It should involve greater rewards to counter the extra difficulty.

This game actually "blurs" the line between "Solo" and "Team" more so than any other MMO that I have played (which is a fairly long list).

Its Been awhile since I have played my Tankers, but doesnt Taunt now add a -rng debuff.
I am pretty sure that was implemented at the same time as the inherent.

Perhaps, technically, its not part of Gauntlet. My Bad

Hello Ultimo,

I am going to avoid suggestions regarding individual powersets for the duration of my solo Empath quest. But in regards to Vigilance, I dont think it should be tied to the defender primary powers in any way. As much as it would be thematic, it seems too dificult to arrive at ONE effect that every Defender would be happy with.

As far as basing it off the number of team-mates, well I have never liked that concept.
Regardless of whether its thematic, no other AT suffers from this type of Inherent effect (defect for me).

Every AT can count on their Inherent both on teams and solo, and the effect is pretty much the same. The only AT that could come to the debate with a legitimate complaint (Hero-side) other than Defenders, is Tankers, and at least they get "something" when solo, albeit not anything spectacular.

Thanks for the excellent response Robin,

I can see your points clearly. And you are right about controllers and the change that their Inherent made.
Perhaps I should have stated this differently.
I seem to recall in the begining the choice between bringing a Defender vs. a Controller was more about preference. If you brought a Controller on your team, you 'Knew' you were gaining greater safety (whether you wish to call it mitigation, controll, etc...) but with a sacrifice of less damage. Your Blasters were usually quite happy with the addition of a controller. If you chose to add a Defender you 'knew' that you were getting some nice buffs which added survivability, but also that you were getting some damage as well.

Once Controllers got containment and defenders were reduced in their damage dealing abilities, the clear distinction was gone. So, what I should have said was that the Controller and Blasters inherents improved their 'performance' but not necessarily their 'role' on a team. By the shear magnitude of the Controller change, they did however muscle past Defenders (with a few exceptions) in the 'role' of team support.

Does that sound more accurate ?

Thanks Luminara excellent responses
As far as the Diversity of Defenders, I have to admit that this is the CORE reason I am so interested in the AT. Every AT I have played was very enjoyable, but as you hinted at, more 'cookie-cutter' in its implementation and typical approaches to weaknesses.

I honestly dont want to see Defenders get the 'Controller' Treatment and be given a significant DPS increase to quiet many of the cries from the community. I would not turn it down either, but I am holding out for a Powerset-by-Powerset review that approaches what each primary "NEEDS" in order to improve all their play aspects;

solo-play
small-team play
large-team play
low-level
mid-level

I think this would be good for the AT, even if it would not be a quick and easy fix.
Anything that is 'too general' will leave the disparity between powersets as they are.
This to me would be a missed opportunity and would continue to push players into the more versatile (read powerful) combinations.

Completely Agree !

Although it seems more thematic for ALL Inherents to be based off the AT's primary, consider Tankers and how the Developers approached their Inherent ability.

I think any attempt to base Vigilance off the primary powersets is doomed from the start because of how different each performs during battle. Which only leaves two options, as I see it; base it off a generic element like Health bars, Endurance Bars, etc... OR... tie it to the defender's secondaries and have the effect improve their primary role in some way.

How this can be done, well... here we are... still...

Sorry Luminara, I missed this repsonse.

I admit that my original post was very general, and also that it is quite true that defenders can 'act' like a controller. Its not always that clear-cut. For instance, when does a controller begin his ability to pre-empt status effects?
My current defender that I am leveling will not get his FIRST real controll until level 28 (Tesla Cage), which is an effect shared with Blasters, who, I might add, would get this power much sooner.

So, I guess, what I would say is this. If you compare each AT across the board at level 50 with all their powers accessible, you do not see as much disparity as you would during the seperate phases of their individual careers.
I have seen Psyonico's videos of his Emp/Nrg/Psy Defender and they are quite impressive, but this does not mean (to me) that a level 30 Empathy Defender is ALSO in-balance. Just my personal feelings about Defenders as an AT.

Hello Robin,

I am paraphrasing what you posted and I apologize for that.

The key factors you listed for what a Vigilence change would result, I think would depend on the 'actual' change that gets made. I think you will agree that the implementation of "Containment" for controllers had a huge change in not only 'performance' of controllers, but also the 'perception' of their 'role', both group and solo.

You also have to admit that the 'revamp' to Blasters inherent abilities was also significant in their performance.

What I would expect to happen with a Vigilance change, would be an effect that WOULD address the perceived views of performance AND role. Judging by their track record, I think we can expect an acceptable change.
I would also wager that the reason it (Vigilance 2.0) is not forth comming is more about finding an effect that would satisfy 'ACTUAL' performance issues, as opposed to everyone's wish-list of changes (more than likely based on their preferred powersets).

Not to belabor the point, but if you take this in-game need (hitting the store) as an AT that is in balance according to the DEVS, then you might also say that perhaps the other ATs that dont stress as much over Status are (perhaps) out-of-balance.

Should the susceptibility to Status effects be a range from best-to-worst ?
What should that order look like ?

Agree And it used to be blasters. From an AT theme point of view, I felt that fit.
But apparently the DEVS agreed with the fans of the game who played Blasters and saw fit to increase their survivability without giving them outright resistance like scrappers and tankers.

I do believe that defenders can still be susceptable to these effects, Heck ALL ATs should be susceptible, or there is really no reason for them to exist. My main feeling though is that in the case of Defenders Inherent being "called" Vigilance, its rather ironic that we are in fact more of an achilles heel AT than any other AT (Hero-side).

This weakness does not make Defenders unplayable, its just an annoying aspect (for ME), that this is the ONLY AT that I play that MUST go to the store and have particular INSPIES on hand at all times. Every other Hero AT that I have played can view inspirations as helpers to make certain battles easier, but with no 'stress' of 'geez, I HAVE to go to the store for some break frees'.

From your wish list of choices, one of them stands out to me as both thematic and quite solo friendly ( Storm - Ice). However you will find this combination will suffer on endurance use until level 22+.

Recently I tried a Defender-Scrapper concept that was supposed to be a Magic-Based Hero(Kinetic-Dark). This combination would get you nice solo-ability, along with endurance recovery and healing, but with a more active playstyle and the -acc in the dark attacks combined with kinetics is quite defensive.
After playing this combo, I noticed that certain villain types (CoT with -acc effects) were quite a pain in the behind, because your drains and heal MUST Hit in order to function.
This made me think that Kinetic/Rad might be an interesting combination as well.

As far as Controllerish, nothing beats a Dark/*** for that feeling.

Hope this helps you decide.
Defenders have SO MANY options, you gotta love that.

Ahh, then you are fine I think. Only considerations for placement would be if you plan on exemplar-ing down to levels where it would come into the forefront.

Looking at your build it looks pretty solid. I am wondering why you chose the Energy mastery Epic pool. With Tough/Temp Inv you will have awesome protection against smash/lethal, but if you went with ANY of the other Epic choices, you would add a third type of resistance. Electric and Psychic would seem the best at the end game.

Other than this, I can not offer much, since I dont play Sonic blast

I totally agree with MissInformed

My Emp/Elec just hit 20 (actually 21 now) and you REALLY want Stamina at 20, if you could get it sooner, then I would say get it then,
but 20 is the first shot at it, so ...

Also, you might consider moving Tough and Weave sooner in the build. I took boxing before 20 (10th I think) and will be taking Tough and Weave at 22 and 24.

I dont know sonic blast at all, but if you are sitting with 3 single target attacks and a decent AoE by 20, they should get you thru most fights.

From my experience with Storm Summoning, the leadership pool doesnt really offer anything that makes it a great addition to your powers. Storm summoning is a pretty endurance heavy powerset, so adding expensive toggles on top of it could be a problem.

My take on leadership pool in general is that the toggles offer too little for too much endurance. Manuevers especially. It was not that good even when it was considered good.

However, another thing to consider is whether your SG has alot of folks already using Leadership. Having multiple team members with these powers actually IS a good thing.

Going Well (by my standards)

Just hit 20 last night (mmmm... Stamina)
I am having all the familiar issues with certain mob types (mezzers), but also learning the differences between soloing a Blaster and soloing a defender thru these levels.

Tallies ; Levels 1-20, <19 hours, 3 Deaths

I will probably post an extensive walk-thru once I am done to show some of the things I have learned.

THIS !

Every Hero-side AT can deal better with status effects than Defenders.

Tanks/Scraps resist outright
Blasters keep on blasting
Controllers are pre-emptive (control them before they control you)
Defenders zzz