Biospark
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Quote:Excellent Post Miladys,Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Having read some of your other posts on the subject I can safely comment that you are using a brute force approach (ie: depending on mitigation through toggles) to a subject that requires finesse. This is a common problem with players that mainly play tanks, scrappers, and brutes.
Because of the way that the game is, and how blasters are set up, there is what I like to call a "performance dead spot" in the level 33-40 range for blasters. You aren't getting much, if any, new mitigation in this area and mobs are getting tougher. This trend reverses itself in the later levels when you get your epic powers.
What you have to do as a blaster is analyze your power set selection(s) strengths and weaknesses and then emphasize your strengths and de-emphasize your weaknesses. You can do all of this with inspirations, accolades, temp powers, and IO set bonuses.
The first step in learning to be a topline blaster is getting out of the toggle mitigation mind set. Remove tough, weave, and manuvers from your build. They are end heavy powers that don't give you enough mitigation for the endurance they use. (Once you've learned HOW to be a blaster you can put them back in if you really want to.)
For the rest, how about we take it one step at a time and analyze and emphasize the strengths, and then analyze and de-emphasize the weaknesses. Since Ultimo is your name sake I'll be making the assumption through out that eventually you'll put the influence into him to make him "Uber" and worthy of being your name sake.
Ultimo_
Another thing that I found true of all characters, but really brought into sharp focus by playing my Energy-Devices Blaster (Level 47), is that each character passes through "plateaus" of strength thru leveling. And you need to know what you can actually achieve at each of these plateaus. Perhaps, you are pushing yourself beyond what is normally achievable for your character. Let me try and illustrate how I see these different levels.
Your first plateau is minor but very noticeable at level 10. Mobs are no longer easy to blow up. They hit harder, seemingly tougher than you have progressed and TOs just dont do enough for you in the damage department (which is why I 2-slot ACC TOs on my powers at this point). Additionally you are seeing real status effects now. DOs and level 15 IOs help a little, but you are in a real "grind" phase for the first time.
The second Plateau is the one you have been waiting for (Level 22). You can now slot "SO's" and have access to a dozen powers, which starts giving you a real attack chain, STAMINA and some situational powers. However, slotting is at a premium. Sure you could start putting Thunderstrike sets in your blasts, but none of them are six-slotted. Your performance is "Heroic", but you are not ready to be facing "Reds" with any kind of success, and even "Orange Lts" can be a real pain.
The Next Plateau occurs between 30-40. In this phase you start having enough slots to start filling in some IO sets on key powers. My Energy Blaster had 3 full sets of Thunderstrike on Power Bolt, Power Blast and Powerburst somewhere around level 37. By this time I also had taken Hover, Tough and Weave (Level 8, Level 24, Level 30). These did not amount to a ton of defense, but combined with Hover they helped. Full set of Red Fortune in Weave prior to 41 as well. This is the time (30-40) when you should be actively trying to get some set IOs into your build. But you need to have a blueprint to work off of by this time as well. Knowing which Sets you need really helps. At this point you should be actively making decent influence thru selling at Went's. By level 41, you should have enough influence coming and going to target a power for IOs (assuming the not-so-expensive stuff) every new power gained should mean one other power IO'd out).
Once you hit level 50, you are going to still be in the Set IO phase and always pursuing Influence to slot powers. So from 40-50 its more or less a continuation of the last Plateau, with the exception of having access to "Epic" powers. These powers form their own phase, and I will tell you why. These powers are simply THAT GOOD. They add elements that are completely lacking prior and/or add powers which completely complement your build. Its not always obvious which "Epic" Set best complements your powers and/or playstyle, so you may well find yourself burning respecs in this phase (I sure did), until you are completely happy with your power choices. But whatever you change, you will need to go back to the drawing board and re-assess your powers and IO choices.
My blaster took Electric Mastery initially to get a third AoE (Static Discharge), but later switched to Power Mastery to have PFF+Aid Self.
The next Plateau is where I am currently trying to reach on my main, which is a completed IO build. I am short of this goal by 10 slots (3 LotG, 2 BotZ KBs, 2 Proc IOs for Health, and 3 Def IOs from LotG set) These 10 IOs may very well cost more Influence and Time than my entire build to this point. There is possibly an additional phase above this where I consider "Purple IOs" but the ultimate goal is still "A Fully IO'd Build".
I am sure you are aware of each of these phases of a character's life, and also that many of the Veterans here can elaborate more on this idea, but the main thing that I want to illustrate is that "each" of these phases ties in very tightly with how far you can push your character. My defender "Biospark" can solo now in an almost unrecognizable fashion from even the time he was "SO-ed" out. But Even now at -10 IOs from completion, he has and knows his limits. This limit of power-per-career-phase will be different for every possible combination of powers/ATs. I feel jealousy at times when thinking of what others can achieve, but it never makes me go out and try those difficulty settings with my characters that are not ready for it.
Hope this helps. Dont give up on your Energy Blaster, its a really fun character to play. -
Quote:Yeah, for some reason MIDs is showing 60% on Heightened Senses, but its 17% in game.Originally Posted by Soul_Fane
17.3 is almost as good as nothing, considering the size of defense debuffs that most mobs wield. Usually 7.5% per hit on most sharp weapons and guns, 10 - 20% on the specialized attacks like radiation and stone.
Too bad really, might as well be 0%
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Quote:Originally Posted by Soul_Fane
I would definitely say that willpower, when combined with DA for melee defense, or kinetic combats for smashing and lethal defense, is one of the most solid secondaries for scrappers, despite some of it's other short comings, like lack of defense debuff resistance.
I could swear that it has some defense debuff resistance somewhere, 60% iirc, but will have to double check in game. -
For a first time defender, I would always choose Radiation Emission over your other two choices. You get alot of your core powers early and they help both solo AND on a team.
Get Radiation Infection, put it on a spawn as your opening move, blast, enjoy
For a Blast set, I agree with Fulmens, take what looks cool to your tastes. Cannot go wrong with powers you love looking at.
From your choices, I would avoid taking Energy Blast with either Kinetics or Rad.
Kinetics is best used in melee range and doesnt mesh well with knockback.
Radiation Emission has 2 anchor powers, so you dont want to be knocking mobs all over the place and reducing the effect of these debuffs.
None of the other possible combinations jump out as bad synergy.
The ones that I have played and felt synergized well;
Rad-Rad
Rad-Electric
Kin-Electric
Sonic-Energy
Sonic-Sonic
Hope you enjoy your defender
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Quote:Originally Posted by spiritfox
Updating , I set up a Katana/WP. I've got a claws/sr brute and a fire/SD scrapper, so this one seemed logical and I like Katana's speed and lower end cost compared to broadsword.
For pools, I'm thinking fighting, possibly fitness, leaping (my default choice for anything melee's travel) and something else. Maybe leadership, maybe stealth. I've only got one hero in the 40s and its a troller, so I'm thinking I want kd or kb in my APP for waltzing in and smacking down an alpha. I had the idea of stealth and an Unbound leap stealth to combat jump into mobs and hit them with a power that stops them from attacking me for a second to break alphas, my claws brute is really loving shockwave as a way to walk up and smack enemies into a wall to keep them from nailing me at once, but then she's almost softcapped so it doesn't really matter for her.
Katana - Willpower will be a blast to play. One of my first and favorite Scrappers back at launch was a Katana/INV and Willpower will match up very nicely with Katana.
The added defense from DA will provide an added dimension to your mitigation very early in your career to take you down the road to IOs. Additionally the AoEs from Katana will make it easier to collapse spawns into you for RttC to boost your survival. Very Solid pairing. My pool choices are Fitness (I love having Fast Recovery AND Stamina), Fighting, Leaping and Stealth.
My current main Scrapper is MA/WP and he has times when he gets over his head and needs to adjust tactics or use inspies, but for the most part he is the most durable melee character I have played. Those situations where I would be getting hurt, I bet your Kat/WP would be on cruise control. Good Luck.
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Quote:Well, my main defender would get zero benefit from it.Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't see how this wouldn't benefit all defenders solo/teamed.
I will say that its an interesting idea that fits with the "spirit" of Vigilance, but it would only benefit Rad and Dark in a "Big" way. Everyone else will get little or no benefit from it.
hmmm, unless your also saying that while mezzed, my Charged Armor, Tactics, Maneuvers, and Combat Jumping would still be protecting myself and my team. That might be interesting. Probably would cause defenders to go more toggle-heavy than they already are, which would be nice if we could get some endurance reduction somewhere in the inherent too. Hehe, oh wait.... -
Quote:Originally Posted by Taiyetos
The only problem with the inherent being based off the secondary is that, unlike a tank, you have use your primary less in order to get the most out of it.
This is a very good point. Not much to say other than balancing an inherent off the primaries seems more difficult to accomplish (if you are assuming a click-sensitive type of effect), because every defender primary is different in its application.
My empath is very active on a team (as far as primaries), but not so much solo, where his blasts take center stage. Other Primaries would be more active solo than my Empath, but considerably less so on a team.
Perhaps this is the reason that they based it solely off team-mates. If that still remains the best way to accomplish their desired effect, then just make my Health count towards the endurance savings in a very real way. I would be happy with that. Give me solo what I get on a team. -
Quote:Yeah, sorry about that. Its not that I ignored them, its just that I have only played around a little with Kheldians and I was not very impressed. So I tend to stick to just the original 5 Hero ATs and can really only refer to those with any kind of real knowledge.Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Khelds are in a similar boat don't forget.
Since the defender inherent is the one I am most interested in seeing fixed, that is another reason for my bias about not restricting the inherent to base off of our primary. All the suggestions I have seen or have thought of myself dont seem to apply equally to all primaries. That doesnt mean, of course that a unique solution is not out there.
I just think that having some effect based off the attacks would be easier to implement, more balanced across all possible primaries and definitely a help to a solo defender. -
Quote:I agree 100%. Just look at Tankers, their inherent operates, for the most part, off their attacks. And actually, when you look at Blasters, Scrappers and Controllers, their main Inherent effects operate off "attacks" as well. The fact that most of these ATs also work off their "Primary" powerset is clearly the intent, but not the "rule" for Inherent abilities.Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
It's hard to think of an inherent they could give Defenders that would be uniformly useful to a bunch of power sets that are as completely non-uniform as Defender primaries. Buffs, debuffs, heals, controls, even pets and damage dealing are found in these sets. For a Defender inherent to be anything like uniformly useful, it would have to hit secondaries rather than primaries, since Defender secondaries all serve the same basic purpose - dealing damage.
I suppose it could be a Power Build Up type effect that improves everything. Build it up like Domination, only with blasts instead of controls, and then activate it to improve, well, pretty much everything in the primary. Heals heal more, controls control more, buffs buff more, etc. That's what I'd focus on if I was gonna design a new Defender inherent. At least, that's the approach I'd take if I was doing it right now. Ask me tomorrow and you might get a different answer. -
Quote:Hello CP2,Originally Posted by cp2_4eva
Hey all. I've been playing CoX on and off for a little over 3 years. This is the year that I got a little more serious or in depth shall I say with building and tweaking a toon. The other day I was looking to create a new scrapper toon and I was a bit undecisive due to the nature of some power sets. I don't mean to seem like a whiner, but why are some powersets SEEM more doable than others? Like I see way more /sr /wp /inv and /SD running around than lets say a /FA or /DA. ElA is probably a running around more because it's fairly new.
I am going to share my perspective on this part of your post.
Over the years, I too have tried alot of Scrapper (and Tanker) combos, and it comes down to clicky management for me. I could not put my finger on it for a long time, since I have played (and currently have) both Dark and Fire in my arsenal. But the reasons I did not stick with them over the long haul was that you need to use your defenses actively (Clicky powers). This was also true of Regen as a set, which we all know is very powerful.
That is until they gave us Willpower. My current favorite melee character (and Highest level) is a MA/WP. He is an absolute joy to play. My defense is all "Set-and-Forget".
This lets me jump into a spawn and focus entirely on attacking. This is how I "want" my Scrappers, Tankers and even Blasters to play. No buff or heal management, just pound the yellow-stuff out of bad-guys.
Every person has their preference, so this may not be a majority trend, but could possibly explain part of the reason you see fewer DA and FA scrappers. Not to mention that FA is pretty new to scrappers. -
My biggest complaint regarding solo defenders has always been the fact that different primary sets have quite varied ability to solo at lower levels. This disparity begins to close ranks as you level up, but never "truely" disappears.
For me at least, the issue with our "inherent" and our "solo strength" are two seperate issues, but they tend to be mentioned together alot since our "inherent" ability does nothing for us while solo (unlike every other Hero-side AT).
My hope is that the Developers will modify our Inherent ability to include some kind of effect while solo AND that they review all defender primaries with an "eye" towards their solo effectiveness.
P.S. I have to give a "nod" to our Tanker friends, as their inherent does do "something" if they care to use it solo, just not anything to write home about. -
Thanks for the replies Umbral,
I will look at this more as well. Its still my belief that for the Team-based Defender models, you would still need a super computer to arrive at some kind of accurate comparitive, unless you do something to Isolate all the team variables.
Good Luck on the finals
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Quote:As much as you are correct about these other factors.Originally Posted by Umbral
Of course, there are still problems that you would have to deal with, no matter what metric you use for comparison. How do you deal with the potential for preexisting defenses in other ATs? You're not going to be running with just Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers below level 41 that haven't taken the Fighting, Leadership, Leaping, Flight, Stealth, Medicine, Speed, or Fitness pools (all of which have powers that generate different values in the end value by if being factored in). People have this strange habit of regularly taking powers outside of Teleportation and Presence (and the exclusion of Presence is only based on the fact that, although present in the last 2 powers of those pools, the contributive value is incredibly low thanks to poor durations, low mag, and high animation times that would make not using them more beneficial). It's probably best to simply assume that no one is going to have any of these abilities and declare that the presence of certain attributes (damage recovery not granted by the Defender set being examined) would generate a decreased functional value (because additional damage recovery diminishes in a functional comparison), others (defense, resist) would generate an increase (because they operate by decreasing a base value by a percent quantity to arrive at incoming damage) until softcap is reached (at which point they ignore the value in the first place), and others (AoE mez) are functionally ignored (because putting another mag 3 of hold on a held target doesn't do anything but look pretty).
Attempting to cover this Myriad of Team powers and combinations and the stacking effects would require a super-computer and perhaps more time than myself (or anyone) with any reasonable intellegence would care to spend on the question.
But I think you missed an important part of my premise. I am assuming that all OTHER powers INCLUDING the Defender's own secondary have been taken into effect and the ARBITRARY damage is "Left Over". This is not multiplicative, its "X" (Total incoming Damage) minus "Y" (All damage mitigated by EVERY other power that is not in the defender's primary) = "Z" (My arbitrary amount of damage).
So yes if your on a team with a Soft-capped Ranged Blaster and a Soft-capped Invuln Tanker and a fully tricked out SR Scrapper the amount of typical un-mitigated damage should be very low, but for the sake of our Premise, lets assume that "X" (once again our starting Damage) is astronomically high, such that "Z" EQUALS that arbitrary amount.
I will admit, however that this makes it very difficult to assign "Actual" survival numbers to ANY powerset because putting a 20% buff on a person with "No Defense" is not equal to putting that same buff on someone with 30% of their "Own" defense.
Anyway Umbral, its obvious you have a grasp of the complexities of building comparitive models, but rather than telling me how it "should" be done. Show me yours. I have no problem with trashing mine if someone would give an example of one that is done the "right" way. Oh, thats right, no one has done this yet
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Quote:You make some valid points in your posts Umbral.Originally Posted by Umbral
The problem with doing as such is that buffs still drop off in the middle of fights and need to be applied. You can't simply assume that 30 seconds is all the time you need to analyze for. If you're simply assuming an arbitrary time frame of 30 seconds and simply normalizing everything to that specific time frame, you're just adding a rather pointless step to the variable time frame that is used for each power in question because it's all being analyzed on a percent scale anyway: rather than just giving the percentage, you're converting it into a percent of the 30 second arbitrary time frame.
As far as using a 30 second window to compare perfomance, you still have not convinced me that it would not be valid. You have shown me something that I completely agree with however in your next paragraph.
You are absolutely right. This should be multiplicative so that its a valid comparison of combined effects. My hat is off to you, I need to re-calculate in that way. ThanksQuote:I'm disagreeing with your methods of generating a metric as well as metric of comparison as a whole because it ignores the fact that every method of contributed survivability operates upon the total survivability in a multiplicative manner rather than an additive manner. Increasing damage by 25% increases survivability by 20% (due to shortening the time that the fight will last; it's actually slightly more because the magnitude in which you've increased damage that overcomes enemy regen is actually higher than 20%), but increasing damage by another 25% doesn't increase survivability by another 20%. The sum of the two benefits are such that it only increases survivability by 33%: (1/(1 + .25)) = .75; (1/(1 + .25 + .25)) = .67.
In your Radiation model, you summed the two values (assuming that they were the only function being added), rather than realizing that the two different sources of +dam would actually operate in a diminishing manner as a mechanism in which they increase survivability.
The thing is, I am not calculating for how long it takes the enemy to defeat you.Quote:I was giving you an example of a model that you could adopt that would be both more comprehensible and more accurate. In that model, because the time frame is an arbitrary assumption based on how long it would take the enemy group to defeat you, the debuff functionally decreases in effect thanks to the lower percent of total targets that it is affecting.
My concept is very simple. Assuming "X" amount of damage that has been unmitigated by all other powers/team-mates, and this damage is delivered during our 30 second window, how well can each primary set reduce that amount. I Understand that this damage would not happen all at once, but given the length of time of the window being only 30 seconds, I felt it minimizes the massive possibilities involved in "Defending" to a more manageable metric. I could be wrong, and your opinion is that apparently I am.
I did, and have looked at that information. My apologies for using ballpark figures in my initial presentation, but I did, afterall, come here asking for opinions on how to reach the correct arbitrary amounts. You have said twice that they are wrong (which I agree on), but if you could show me what they should be, that would be much cooler.Quote:As I said before, your math and assumptions, and thusly your model, are wrong. Shortening the fight doesn't increase survivability in an additive manner. It increases it in a diminishing multiplicative manner.
Just look at the same page I linked before. On that page are lists that describe the increased effect that higher level enemies have on lower level targets (as well as the increased NPC chances to hit against enemies of different levels, though more information on that specific variable is available at the bottom of the page here). Enemies that are one level higher would be 10% more accurate (thanks to having a level based AccMod of 1.1) and deal 11% more damage (thanks to the 1.11 purple patch modifier to effects). This means that a +1 enemy would deal (1.1 * 1.11) = 1.221 times the damage that an even level enemy would deal. +2 would be (1.2 * 1.22) = 1.464. +3 would be (1.3 * 1.33) = 1.729. +4 would be 2.016. +5 would be (1.5 * 1.55) = 2.325. Anything that is higher level, aside from being virtually unkillable thanks to the crippling reduction in player effectiveness, would need to be modified to account for the fact that individuals more than 5 levels above their target's level gain a tohit bonus along with an accuracy bonus, though it's not like you're attempting to do so into such a range.
Umbral, you have brought up some good points (which I appreciate), but this last one is kinda weak. I am not trying to pick a fight, honestly though, citing the inability of a defender to survive 30 seconds of a battle. Heck yes I can assume the defender will last 30 seconds. How would making the time-frame longer be more valid considering this argument heheQuote:Even so, I still think that it would be a much more appropriate thing to use the increases in damage to account for a shrinking of the survivability timetable rather than a flat increase in target difficulty. Using the arbitrary time frame assumes that you're going to be in the fight for 30 seconds, no longer, no more, rather than realizing that the length of the fight itself is variable.
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Quote:Actually I dont assume that buffs are being re-applied every 30 sec. But the Shield buffs you mention would be counted for the full extent of the 30 seconds and since they are buffs their activation time would not be counted against the blast ratio.Originally Posted by Umbral
Okay, here's your first problem. Not every set operates on what amounts to a 30 second survivability cycle. In fact, just look at any of the shield power sets (FF, Cold, Thermal, Sonic). You can't assume that the Defender is going to reapply all shields every 30 seconds when the shields last 3 minutes. It would be much better to base the survivability model not off of an arbitrary time frame, but rather off of a variable time frame that accounts for increased offensive capabilities (which would shorten the period of time the players are exposed to danger) and increased survivability capabilities (which would lengthen the period of time before anyone starts dieing).
I am not sure here if you are actually disagreeing with me. My Arbitrary damage is just a number of unaccounted for damage. Whether this is coming from 1 target or multiple targets does present an incongruity with regards to probability, but I think the logic is sound in isolating performance.Quote:Essentially, survivability would be equal to (base time to death) / (increased offensive capability) * (increased survivability) and powersets would be compared based off of these numbers: high would be better than low because the players are being exposed to less damage. Base time to death could honestly be any arbitrary assigned value because the defender benefits are simply factors associated with it. You might as well just assume a base time to death of 1, meaning 1 period of time that it would take all enemies to kill them, and then simply reduce the contributions of ST debuffs to account for the fact that only a single target is affected (a power that increases survivability by 20% against a single target would be reduced to a 10% increase against 2 targets).
I dont agree with you here. 20% Survivability for a buff remains 20% against more targets, but the incoming damage would be higher, so I understand why you might make that distinction.Quote:(a power that increases survivability by 20% against a single target would be reduced to a 10% increase against 2 targets)
Thanks to StratoNexus showing me a thread by Arcanaville, I understand what you are hinting at. However, Defenders have a unique situation where they perform one way solo and completely differently while teamed. I am still analyzing Arcanaville's theories, so its too early to give an alternate model.Quote:With this model, you would also simply determine, based off of assumed usage based on power cycles and need, the percent of any arbitrary time frame that the Defender would spend using its primary powers to support. A high number would mean that the defender has substantially less time to spend doing anything except for using its primary powers. A low number means that the defender would be spending substantially less time doing so.
For example, Force Fields, activating just Repulsion Bomb, Deflection Shield, and Insulation Shield would have a primary time usage of when on a team of 5. 4 applications, each taking 2.244 seconds, every 240 seconds of both Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield would use up 7.48%. One application of Repulsion Bomb every 21.4 seconds (3.3 animation time, 18.1 second recharge assuming 66% +rech enhancement) would equate to 15.4%. The total time usage would then be 22.88%.
This is kind of the reason I made a "Blast Ratio" concept. Any model built could be abused to show "over-use" of defensive powers. Obviously in realgame battles you dont cast a heal or a buff when one is not needed, so having a targeted ratio thats different for a solo Defender than a Team Defender makes a "Soft" application of what you suggest. Additionally, I am calculating offensive advantages into the primary powers. Accelerate Metabolsim for example increases attack rate and damage, which will essentially "shorten" the fight by a determinable amount.Quote:If you really wanted to get complicated, you could then take the remaining percentage of time that the Defender spends doing other things, multiply it by the offensive advantages granted by the primary powerset and determine the exact offensive benefit that the Defender contributes as well (as a function of 1 Defender; 1 being what the Defender would do if it spent all of its time attacking), giving the powers an offensive contribution score and a survivability contribution score.
I have used 35% as the amount of time reduced in defeating foe(s). This then becomes 35% more survival and gets added back in to the defender and team's health.
Actually thats why the arbitrary amount of damage increases with the level. This is where that additional damage against buffers is factored in. You should notice on the Rad example that I applied the "purple patch" as a multiplier at the end, so Debuffers get both ends of the "BAT". Where I could use some help is setting the arbitrary incoming damage based on real values. I used 100% of the Defenders HPS at +0 and scaled up to 200% of the defenders HPS at +4, but what should these numbers actually be based on increasing villain damage and accuracy ?Quote:No matter if you adopt the model I suggested earlier or continue using your own, the question of what level variance would do to survivability is actually well known and easy to account for. Check up on the Purple Patch. Because enemies that are higher level than the players they are engaged with have greater effects from their powers, greater chance to hit with their powers, and are affected less by powers of players, you can actually determine, quite easily, what the comparative difficulty of fighting those targets is, though not through some arbitrary increase to whatever value you're arbitrarily assigning them.
With your model, buffs and debuffs are treated exactly the same no matter the level of the enemies you are fighting with. Because of the purple patch, buffs are actually substantially better because those values are never reduced in effect. While the debuffs of a Radiation Defender would be drastically reduced in effect against a +4 target (reduced in effect by 52%), the buffs of a Force Field Defender would still be at their full strength. In order to make it a useful model, you would need to modify downwards every debuff based set when used against higher level targets based exclusively off of the Purple Patch. Of course, this is completely ignoring the issue of native debuff resistances that most NPCs have. Ignoring anything not within the scope of "normal" teaming situations, all Lieutenants and Bosses have native tohit debuff resistance that would need to be accounted for.
I greatly appreciate your feedback Umbral
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Quote:Definitely will consider it. Two responses regarding it alreadyOriginally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I would reconsider it especially if you begin to take into consideration the effects of secondary powers. Rad/Dark Defenders using T_T and CC are almost as good as controllers. You can immobilize a spawn, then hold them, and your anchor has very little chance of running off. Only a Boss would be a problem and a hold from an Epic power would solve that.
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Quote:Actually, in one of my earliest models, I included it.Originally Posted by Evilmeister
Why are you leaving out Choking Cloud for Radiation Emission? Debuff diminishing numbers are tragic, which is an imbalance when considering debuffing sets versus buffing. *sighs*
But I think it falls into that category of non-typical.
I would probably only take it on a Controller, and its cost is hefty enough that its hard to imagine using it AND RI, EF and any other defensive toggle-type powers at the same time.
It was my impression from other defenders that it is often not used, much the way many defenders skip Absorb Pain. Useful power, just highly skippable.
If enough folks consider it a staple power then it should be added in though. -
Qualifying Notes:
It may have been noticed that the AoE Buffs are targeting only 4 out of 5 team members.
Realistically, all 5 members could receive the Buffs/Heals, however in typical game play, I have found that nearly every cast will find someone outside the area of effect, thus not recieving the benefits. -
RADIATION EMISSION
Survival Model for comparison
Powers used(Solo and Team): Rad Aura, Rad Infection, Enervating Field, Acc Metabolism, and Lingering Radiation.
Powers not categorized: Mutation, Choking Cloud, Fallout, EMP Pulse
POWER Templates
Rad Aura(X2), 4.06 Activation, 25% heal (Team will use 3 times affecting 4/5 Team-mates)
Acc Metabolism (4/5 teammates), no Activation(buff), 25%Dmg, 30% recharge = 35% survival boost per team-mate
DEBUFFS:
Rad Infection, 3.0 Activation(Team only), 50%Acc Debuff, 30% DefDebuff = 95% survival
Enervating Field, 1.5 activation, 25% Dmgdebuff, 30%Res Debuff = 48% survival
Lingering Rad, 1.5 activation, 75% slow = 43% survival
***because of the nature of these AoE debuffs we will use 2 models, one in which the 3 debuffs do not overlap and one which has some overlap***
No Overlap: RI (33%) EF (33%) LR (33%)
Overlap: RI+EF+LR (10%), RI+EF (10%), EF+LR (10%), RI+LR(10%)
RI (20%), EF (20%), LR (20%)
Without Overlap results 62% survival per team-mate at +0
With Overlap we get 93% survival per team-mate at +0
Solo Blast Ratio: 22.9 to 7.1 = 3.22
Team Blast Ratio: 17.9 to 12.1 = 1.48
Solo no Overlap
+0 : 147% survival ( 100% - 100% +(35% +50% +((31.7% +16% +14.3%)*1))
+1 : 116% survival ( 100% - 125% +(35% +50% +((31.7% +16% +14.3%)*.9))
+2 : 85% survival ( 100% - 150% +(35% +50% +((31.7% +16% +14.3%)*.8))
+3 : 40% survival ( 100% - 175% +(35% +50% +((31.7% +16% +14.3%)*.65))
+4 : 15% survival ( 100% - 200% +(35% +50% +((31.7% +16% +14.3%)*.48))
Solo with better Overlap
+0 : 178% survival ( 100% - 100% +(35% +50% +((93%)*1))
+1 : 144% survival ( 100% - 125% +(35% +50% +((93%)*.9))
+2 : 109% survival ( 100% - 150% +(35% +50% +((93%)*.8))
+3 : 70% survival ( 100% - 175% +(35% +50% +((93%)*.65))
+4 : 30% survival ( 100% - 200% +(35% +50% +((93%)*.48))
TEAM no Overlap
+0 : 150% survival ( 500% - 500% + (140% +300% +((62% * 5)*1))/5
+1 : 120% survival ( 500% - 625% + (140% +300% +((62% * 5)*.9))/5
+2 : 88% survival ( 500% - 750% + (140% +300% +((62% * 5)*.8))/5
+3 : 53% survival ( 500% - 875% + (140% +300% +((62% * 5)*.65))/5
+4 : 18% survival ( 500% - 1000% +(140% +300% +((62% * 5)*.48))/5
TEAM with better Overlap
+0 : 180% survival ( 500% - 500% + (140% +300% +((93% * 5)*1))/5
+1 : 156% survival ( 500% - 625% + (140% +300% +((93% * 5)*.9))/5
+2 : 112% survival ( 500% - 750% + (140% +300% +((93% * 5)*.8))/5
+3 : 73% survival ( 500% - 875% + (140% +300% +((93% * 5)*.65))/5
+4 : 33% survival ( 500% - 1000% +(140% +300% +((93% * 5)*.48))/5 -
EMPATHY POWERSET
Survival Model for comparison
Powers used: Healing Aura (Solo/Team), Fortitude(Team), Adrenaline Boost(Team), Heal Other(Team)
and Regen Aura(Solo/Team). **Regen Aura is a special case and will have a seperate set of values***
Powers not categorized: Rez, Clear Mind, Absorb Pain, Recovery Aura
POWER Templates
Heal Aura (X3), 6.09 Activation, 25% Heal per cast (effects 4/5 team members each cast)
Heal Other (X3), 6.81 Activation, 50% Heal per cast
Fortitude (X2), no Activation(Buff), 30%Dmg, 20%Def, 20%Acc, Total boost= 75% each
Adrenaline Boost (X1), no Activation(Buff), 100%Rech, 500%Regen(0-75% in 30 sec)
Regen Aura (X4 on team), 700% Regen (0-100% in 30 sec), no Activation(Buff)
Solo Blast Ratio: 23.91 to 6.09 = 3.92
Team Ratio: 17.10 to 12.90 = 1.32
Solo w/o RA
+0 : 75% survival ( 100% - 100% +(25% x3))
+1 : 50% survival ( 100% - 125% +(25% x3))
+2 : 25% survival ( 100% - 150% +(25% x3))
+3 : 0% survival ( 100% - 175% +(25% x3))
+4 : -25% survival ( 100% - 200% +(25% x3))
Solo w/RA
+0 : 175% survival ( 100% - 100% +(25% x3) +100%)
+1 : 150% survival ( 100% - 125% +(25% x3) +100%)
+2 : 125% survival ( 100% - 150% +(25% x3) +100%)
+3 : 100% survival ( 100% - 175% +(25% x3) +100%)
+4 : 75% survival ( 100% - 200% +(25% x3) +100%)
Team w/o RA
HA = 25% (x12) : HO = 50% (x3) : Heal Totals = 450%
Fort = 1/(1.3*1.2)+40% = 75% (x2) = 150%
AB = 1 / 1.5 = 34% + 75% = 100% (recharge caps survival of the 75% regen)
+0 : 140% survival ((500% - 500% + (450% + 150% +100%))/5)
+1 : 115% survival ((500% - 625% + (450% + 150% +100%))/5)
+2 : 90% survival ((500% - 750% + (450% + 150% +100%))/5)
+3 : 65% survival ((500% - 875% + (450% + 150% +100%))/5)
+4 : 40% survival ((500% - 1000% +(450% + 150% +100%))/5)
Team with RA
Regen Aura adds 100% (x4) = 400%
+0 : 220% survival ((500% - 500% + (450% + 150% +100% +400%))/5)
+1 : 195% survival ((500% - 625% + (450% + 150% +100% +400%))/5)
+2 : 170% survival ((500% - 750% + (450% + 150% +100% +400%))/5)
+3 : 145% survival ((500% - 875% + (450% + 150% +100% +400%))/5)
+4 : 120% survival ((500% - 1000% +(450% + 150% +100% +400%))/5) -
Hello Defenders,
I have been working on comparitive models for Defender primaries and I am hoping to run this by our Veterans, with the hopes of perfecting the idea and also enlist the help with building models for powersets that I am less familiar with.
This is very wordy to present, so my apologies about that.
ASSUMPTIONS
ONE: We will use a model depicting 30 seconds of a typical battle. During that 30 seconds we make an assumption that all powers other than the Defender Primary powerset have been accounted for with regards to incoming damage except an arbitrary amount which we will then use the primary powers to mitigate.
We can then compare the performance of different Primary powersets using these models.
Solo Damage amounts will be;
100% at +0
125% at +1
150% at +2
175% at +3
200% at +4
Our Team model will be made up of a 5-man team (Average of 2-8 team size), and just for reference that could be one of each Hero side AT.
Once again we will assign an arbitrary amount of incoming damage that is not mitigated by all other team-mates and our Defender’s other non-primary powers. “Left over” Team numbers start at 500% (which is 100% for each of 5 team-mates)
500% at +0
625% at +1
750% at +2
875% at +3
1000% at +4
((Note: The arbitrary amounts I have assigned may not reflect actual mob strength ratios. I welcome discussion on how to properly set these interval amounts))
TWO: We will establish a Ratio of powers against the 30 second time-frame and call this a “Blast Ratio”. It is an attempt to find a normal or average set of activities during a typical fight. For the Solo models we will attempt to create “Blast Ratios” of at least 2:1.
What this means is that the defender is assumed to be using powers other than the Primary to defeat their opponents. A 2:1 ratio means that the Defender would spend at most 10 seconds using Primary powers, and the remaining 20 seconds actively defeating (blasting) his/her opponents. For the Team models we will aim for a Ratio of 1:1
On some powers we will not use the activation times in our Blast Ratio, because they fall into the category of “set-up” powers. Any good defender will activate these powers (often-times buffs) prior to battle. Additionally, our 30 second window of activity is meant to be closer to the start of a battle, but not necessarily exactly at the start.
((Note: I leave a question out there for anyone to discuss regarding the idea of “solving for blast ratios” at the end of each comparison. Since we cannot change the activation times of our powers, I did not do this in my calculations, but mathematically it would make sense. Doing so would normalize the results and show what each powerset could mitigate given the exact same amount of time to do so))
THREE: Our Goal is to arrive at a number representing how well the Defender powerset “Survives” a specified amount of un-mitigated damage. However, there are many powers in Defender primaries that we may be unable to quantify in terms of survival, especially considering the window of 30 secs is a small snapshot of all possible events in battle. With regards to powers which we cannot quantify or, secondly, are used under limited circumstances, or thirdly, not used at all by the majority of players, these powers will be lumped back into all other mitigating effects and not categorized. Once again, our goal is to depict as accurately as possible a “Typical” time snapshot of the powerset in action.
FOUR:We will use numbers for powers that represent basic “single origin” slotting.
It is understood that slotting can be optimized to higher levels, but also that prior to “SO” levels, our ability to mitigate damage is considerably less. With the community help on perfecting the models, we could further break down the performance to “Pre-SO”, “SO” and “Extreme” categories (or any number of permutations we would like), but this initial attempt will be aimed at the “Middle of the Road” in a Defender’s career.
Final Note:
I have been working on this for some time, and with the help of the community, I am sure we can create working models of every powerset, including ones that I have little or no experience with like TA, Traps, or Cold. Also, I want to add that this project is not meant to be a springboard for effecting changes or proving how poor one set is to another. It is simply my efforts to attach numbers to actual defender powerset strengths across the whole spectrum of play (Solo or Teamed, +0 to +4 Villain strength). More Permutations are welcomed and expected. Let’s have some fun with this
-
Quote:I too would say that solo Sonic is worse off than Empathy.
I would believe that Sonic is worse than empathy solo, though my Son/Son is only 29, he feels weaker than my Emp/Energy did at the same level. I don't get my buff pets for a few more months (I think April) so I can't check on that, however, I have used the relatively fragile clockwork gears to some success against Heracles, the trick there is to hold the aggro on yourself.
Also I would say that Empathy actually starts off better than Forcefield, but eventually Forcefield pulls ahead on survivability. A nicely slotted Healing Aura does pretty darn good at keeping you alive pre-stamina, but the endurance cost is pretty hefty at the same time. -
Quote:I know this was directed at Psyonico, and no disrespect to the OP for the minor hijack,Originally Posted by DrMike2000
A question for Psyonico - numerically, how effective is your solo empath compared to any other solo Defender, or other character you've run? Just as a ballpark figure.
I'd say my worse solo Defender experience was Cosmika - Sonic/Energy with Fighting pool and a solo-oriented build. She really did feel about 70% as effetcive as say Kin/Elec, FF/Sonic and maybe 50% as good as the better soloers like Dark/Rad or Storm/Ice.
But I have an idea for which I will be starting a thread on (soon, I hope), to explore an idea that attempts to isolate Defender primaries with regards to their ability to effect survival (Both Solo and Teamed). I am hoping that you, Psyonico, Laughing Man, StratoNexus and everyone else with an interest will assist in isolating more powersets than the ones I am most familiar with.
I was kinda inspired by Bill Z Bubba from the scrapper forums with how he was able to isolate DPS on different powersets using a logical framework. -
Quote:Ultimo, Its funny you should bring up Paragon Protectors as an example.
Biospark:
Buffers benefit from a steady level of protection, it's just very low. As I say, Dispersion bubble is the only real defense FF has for the Defender. The knocking effects are very marginal as defenses. Debuffers get the benefit of their debuffs every time that use them, though the benefit may vary by target, to some degree (which is also true of the Dispersion Bubble). I'll note that facing +4 and +5 foes reduces both the buffs and the debuffs to marginal levels. Last night, while fighting a +5 Paragon Protector, with the Dispersion Bubble, Weave and Manuevers on, he had a 95% chance to hit me. The comaparison breaks down somewhat at extremes. In my experience, my FFer can't take on a purple AT ALL. No defense, no offense and low health is a death sentence.
When I was doing my solo quest, I was actually dreading the missions with them.
But once I actually faced them, I discovered they were easier than expected.
If you recall, I mentioned that you have to utilize BOTH primary and secondary in your survival. My Blaster (Energy/Dev/Power) handled PP like so, KB+KB+ more KB means they stay on their butt the whole time I am focus-firing all three ST blasts and Power Push to keep em on their butt. He can usually drop them before they can even stand up long enough to MoG. You have to time it right is all. And IF they managed to stand up long enough to MoG, I would just PFF+Aid Self until their MoG wears off, drop PFF and go to town again.
With Biospark its even easier, Drain their power and guess what ... no MoG, no attacks, nothing. Just stand there and look silly while I fry you with Lightning bolts.
I realize that you are probably very familiar with your powers, so dont take this as condescending, since I actually believe FF could stand some improvement, but your Secondary plays just as big a part in survival as your primary and strategy is the third part of it all.
Scrappers have it easy, punch buttons till villain is down, switch targets, repeat.
Defenders have to plan each battle out in advance, step..by..step. And its much more difficult for FF, Sonic and Emp to reach the levels where they feel Heroic.
P.S. I would add other Primaries like Kinetics, Cold, TA, but I have no experience with them so I cannot reliably say they need improvement. And Kinetics has incredible DPS abilities which is one of the 4 cornerstones of survival, so that is not a powerset I would lump together with FF, Sonic and Empathy -
Quote:If you have not played a support character in prior games, the best thing I can say is practice, practice, practice.Originally Posted by Radubadu
In terms of playing a defender the one thing that I'm wondering about is targetting. Since defenders seem to be much more complicated than anything else I've played with thus far, how do you guys keep track of what's going on and change targets quickly enough to keep everyone alive or am I thinking too much into it?
Being support means you spend more time looking at health bars than a non-support character. This is due to the fact that you need to know who is in trouble. If someone is getting pounded, then they become priority number one. You would throw a heal, hold, or knockback in their direction to give them some breathing room.
I know some people like to turn on the health bars over players heads in order to avoid looking at the group bars, thus allowing you to see the battle AND players health, but I find that works only when you stay back at range with the battle happening in front of you.
Since there are many times when players move out of your viewscreen (especially since I play in melee range) I have developed over the years the habit of looking back and forth between the team health bars and the view of the battle, such that I only rarely fail to notice someone in trouble.