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Quote:You have discovered one of the key challenges of playing a set like Radiation.Having recently played a Rad defender and hating it, I've come to wonder which is better in todays teaming environment, buffing or debuffing.
I found debuffing spawns to be troublesome in a fast moving team, my anchors got killed almost instantly even when placed on a LT or a boss. It seemed like my debuffs were ineffectual, the team would slaughter everything regardless.
So if I were to choose a more buff set oriented set, which would be better? A more pure buff set like FF or Empathy, or a sort of hybrid buff/debuff set like sonic or cold?
Having done Radiation Emission many times on teams, including 3-maning the Posi-TF with a Tank and a Scrapper from my SG, I can certainly empathize with your troubles.
For me the key to playing Radiation on a team was trying to outwit the "scrapper-lock" of my team mates. The best thing you can do on a fast moving team is throw Radiation Infection on the "hard" targets like Bosses, so that even if they go down fast you are guaranteed that they contributed. Also on fast teams, I often would just use 1 of the 2 toggles and then only re-apply if the fight started going sour. Which toggle would depend on the team make-up. RI on a more fragile team (taking more damage than the healing could control) or EF on a more "robust" team or a very AoE happy team (Blasters) in order to speed up killing.
With that all being said, I definitely prefer playing a "buff-oriented" defender on teams.
I dont have to worry about my anchors getting dropped. But that doesnt mean "buffing" is for everyone either. A buffing defender has to work hard to keep the buffs on as many as possible. Which is compounded more by a fast-moving team (sometimes your buff target has run off or is lagging behind). You will feel like your mainly buffing and not doing much blasting. And after a particularly long play session you may even get "burned-out" on buffing.
Trying to be fair and give you the "downside" of both types of defenders, you really need to decide which one offers the least annoying side effect (toggle-drop, buff-fatigue) and then go from there. Of the "buff" sets I would say that FF is the least stressfull to play on a team. You need to click the same 2 buttons every few minutes for every teammate but other than that its fun-fun-fun of blasting and re-positioning bad-guys. On the De-buff side of the house I think Trick Arrow (even though I have never played it) would offer the least headaches in a teaming environment since there are no toggles to drop.
I apologize for the ramble, but hopefully there is something here that helps you decide. -
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Quote:A large part of me hopes that Defender's see this kind of Ancillary Shield added, but I am not holding my breath on whether or not it will be one of the "funky-looking" Ice or Earth armors. I completely agree with Sarrate regarding the Ancillary powers. You can min-max all that you want, but at the end of the day (For Me) the powers have to fit the concept.Definitely, it is significantly easier to build s/l (and energy too) on to a corr. It tends to be about 33% easier to build all the other defenses onto a defender.
If you are building from the ground up on a toon with no innate defense scorp shield is a huge leg up.
FWIW if Def's every get a s/l defense shield it will probably be ~17% base. That will be pretty crazy though as just the shield+weave+1 slotted cj+steadfast will give 40% def. Not entirely unlike how trivially easy it is to cap s/l on a /stone app troller (16% base).
I'll honestly be a bit surprised if defs don't get some kind of defense based shield in GR though as they are the only squishies that don't have one now. -
My Vote for a Tank-Fender would be Forcefield Primary , hands-down
Forcefields offers the ability to get to the Softcap on defense AND some form of personal "Mez" protection. If your team is looking to you for "Tanking" you can soften a spawn with Repulsion Bomb or fly in to range with PFF running and soak up an Alpha strike.
And there are many, many, more tactics that FF Vets here know better than myself.
As far as which secondaries would work best, I will leave that to others since I don't generally play my Defenders as "point men". Running into a spawn is someone else's job -
Quote:Je_Saist, sorry to paraphrase what you posted (most of it I don't dispute), but this part was something that I felt needed to be elaborated on....
Elec... on it's own... as a defender set... really can't manage to do it's secondary effect without help from the primary power set. Granted, that's why it combo's well with the Kinetics set because between the two, you can keep Enemies endurance bone dry.
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Electric, "sapping" in particular, only gets better once you can add in ancillary powers like Powersink or Power Buildup. I personally prefer Powersink because of the fact I can use it to refill my blue bar even if I am not sapping.
Truthfully though, "sapping" has its main weakness in the fact that you have to drain 100% of the enemies endurance for it to matter. Other types of debuff secondary effects work on their first application and continue to magnify and strengthen on repeated applications.
Endurance Drain has "Zero" noticeable effect until the endurance of a villain hits zero and as soon as they recover even a sliver, they can use their main-line attacks again.
That being said, if you slot Short Circuit for "Drain" and "recharge" you can drain even +2 mobs with 2 shots. Additionally, you can even slot EndMod in your CB, LB, Ball Lightning and even Tesla Cage and make draining a hard target possible with 1 Short Circuit plus a round of attacks.
My opinion of "sapping" is that it is very powerful IF (and its a big IF) you plan for it and emphasize it in your slotting. Your Primary powerset will not make much difference unless it provides you means of recharging Short Circuit faster (Which Kin does) or adds to your draining abilities (Which Kin sorta does with Transference). This is also just my opinion, but what would help with "sapping" the most is ways to reduce the strength of the enemy's alpha-strike. Ironically, Primary sets that can mitigate "alphas" really well, may have little to no use for "sapping". Go figure -
Quote:Dark Pit + Oppressive Gloom (Ancillary) has got to be a fun combination (able to stun Bosses and Lts when combined). I can tell you from experience that OG does only effect minions, but this is still a decent form of mitigation by itself. I eventually dropped OG on my Empath because I liked Electric mastery more AND Electric Blast has no "stuns" to stack with it.Excellent source of information, thank you all.
A couple of nitpicks/inquiries.
I've used dark blast paired with dark/ before and found although the cones were super fun, although the damage was pretty low. I'm afraid having to wait for the cones to complete their damage cycle will feel pretty strange with the frentic zipping about that comes with siphon speed. Dark Pit sounds like it'll be pretty good with Kin, but isn't it just a minion level stun?
Not to sound like a doubter, since you all have more /elec experience than I do, but is the damage really that bad? I figured Kins' +damage buffs would more than compensate.
Rad seems tempting, for the aim + cosmic burst control.
So damage aside, does elec's -endurance measure up against dark's -tohit?
Once again, your info is superb, thanks!
As far as Damage from electric goes, I know many people have said that Elec damage is sub-par, and I will not disagree with that. But think about it, if Kinetics is able to "lift" Electric damage up to a decent level, then it would do even more for a set that has a big hitter like "Power Burst" or "Cosmic Burst". I have taken my Kin/Electric out for a spin several times on Test and now after the I17 Defender improvements. Its pretty nice seeing Lightning Bolts over 270 damage (lvl 36), while solo. Minions are now reduced to the rif-raff level they deserve, while Lts and Bosses can be taken down with effort befitting their station. One of my biggest complaints for soloing my Defenders was how long it took to defeat bosses.
Dark versus Electric ? Dark has more tools to deal with larger spawns. Has a better self-heal which requires a +toHit check, and just as much AoE potential as electric. Against single Hard Targets, its a tough call, but a well-slotted Electric can sap even the toughest Boss within 10 seconds and keep them there. That would tend to favor Electric on small spawns of higher level foes. Dark can use powers to disrupt and reduce the alpha-strike damage, while electric has only one "Hold" to reduce an alpha-strike.
So I guess the question is: Do you plan on soloing larger spawns, higher level foes, or maybe both. Kin-Electric will hit a wall on large spawns, where Dark will not. Since I have not played Dark to the end-game, I honestly cannot say how well it does against harder foes, but -toHit probably allows for some decent survival as one layer combined with "Stuns", "Holds", "Immobilization", "Fear" etc... -
Of the four choices you mentioned, Kin/Dark is probably the best soloer. It has alot of extra control at its disposal which is both group and solo-friendly. Some might say its not as solid of a synergy because you need to be at range for the cones and in close for the kinetic buffs, but I have never found this to be an issue. I move all the time during combat.
Psychic is a secondary I have always wanted to like, but just cannot get past the sound effects. On paper it seems like a very solid powerset with much more control than electric, thereby being perhaps a better soloer.
I agree with Je_Saist about energy, Its a wonderful powerset, but definitely has synergy issues with Dark, Rad, Storm and Kinetics primaries. It pairs better with Empathy, Forcefields, Sonic and possibly the others which I have zero experience on (TA, Cold, Traps).
Having a Kin-Electric on Guardian (currently at 36) I can tell you that Je_Saist has given you a very good run-down on this one as well. My main toon is Emp-Electric and he uses "sapping", and I was intrigued by Kin-Electric as a more powerful "sapper". Kin-Electric is a moderately skilled soloer and can survive reasonably well due to the +damage that he can deal, but you still have only "Tesla Cage" for dealing with alpha strikes making it somewhat problematic raising difficulties to higher spawn sizes.
Listen to Strato_Nexus, he is usually right -
Quote:Defenders do not output more damage than Corruptors after the changes.Ok, so i just rolled a Dark/Dark fender and cor, and i want to know which is better. I know that Fenders get the buffs to the secondary effects, and they just recently got a damage boost, but is the damage output better than cors now?
help!
Based on numbers that others have posted, Corruptors deal approx 15% more base damage and another 15%+ for scourge (averaged over time). So they have 30%+ more damage with 30% less effective buffs than Defenders. This is balanced.
Defenders now get a 30% damage buff while solo, which under some limited circumstances could push them to be equal in damage WHILE SOLO. This all disappears on a team of 4 or more and the Defender trades his damage dealing ability for an Endurance savings Inherent.
Overall, Corruptors will still have a damage edge, However Newbie Defenders and Solo Defenders will have a noticeable boost in damage.
I dont play Corruptors, so my opinion is fairly biased towards Defenders, however I would still be tempted to play Corruptors simply because they are more capable of dealing damage to "Hard Targets" than Defenders, and will probably stay that way. -
My highest level Controller to date was a Mind/Empathy. I was aiming for total support in that I would have the best controls, combined with the best buffs and best heals. It was actually quite fun.
I have also leveled an Ice/Empathy and enjoyed it as well. Empathy as a secondary has a lot going for it, especially since Controllers now have "containment" to assist in their solo-ing needs.
But if I were to ever try Empathy on a controller again, it would probably be Earth/Empathy.
Just the thought of having something to put Fortitude on while solo makes me smile. And I would bet "buffed-up Stoney" is quite a sight to see in action. -
I agree with Techbot_Alpha
This idea is interesting and I can see the concept behind it clearly, however it strikes fairly close to "Willpower"; a set we already have, so might not be different enough for developement.
I do like the idea of a major debuff taunt aura though. We currently have three sets with AoE taunts (+regen/-tohit, +def/+tohit, +dmg) so something that was more focused on debuff would be interesting and due to lack of regen, defense, and resistance of large amounts it could work. I would take away the penalty and just make it a flat (and large) debuff of their tohit and damage. This would simulate Defense and Resistance, but only to enemies in range. Then I think you could fit in some ranged and aoe defense somewhere else to bring it up to par with other sets, because as you balanced it, I think its a tad on the weaker side.
Bio -
As far as Kheldians are concerned (Not having played the Villain-side EATs) they could make them un-lockable at level ONE and I still will not play them. I just don't like them.
My guess is that they are making them more available to encourage more people to play them. As it stands now, only a small fraction of the player base even plays them, and that must be kind of a "slap in the face" considering how hard they had to work to create them.
So overall, this was probably a good change. Just don't know if it will have the desired effect. -
Here is my take on IOs. And this is coming from a casual player as well.
I always, repeat always, slot out generic level 25 IOs once I get a character to 22.
This will run anywhere from 2-5 million depending on the types of IOs you need. For example, my DM/SR character was pretty expensive because of needing a Luck charm for every ACC IO and every Defense IO (ickk). It may seem on paper to be more expensive than SOs, but here is the good news, you NEVER have to replace that IO until your darn good and ready to do so. Level 25 Generic IOs are nearly identical to SOs but never degrade as you level up. Then you only need to add in new IOs (generic) as you gain new powers and slots to fill.
As far as Set IOs, there are many ways to approach these, and many folks will tell you to wait till 50 and after you have decided on a final build before chasing IO sets. Which is a good plan.
My characters all start slotting specific IOs and cheap sets in their 30s, but that was not always the case. My first IO'ed toon got lucky and found both a respec recipe and a miracle +recovery proc in his late 30s. Instead of using them, I sold them to get a nice bank account started, and turned those 2 drops into 3 full sets of Thunderstrike, a full set of BotZ (they were cheaper then), and several other uncommon sets.
So to answer your question, with only 32 million to work from, I would just do generic IOs and level up. Do merit story arcs, do TFs to get merits, and hopefully get some lucky drops. I will not go into some of the influence-making schemes that are possible, but I would play around with Mid's and see what cheap IO sets could be good place-holders for your ultimate build. For example, my 47 WP/Fire Tanker has 5 full sets of Smashing Haymaker which are place-holders for Kinetic Combat. These 20 IOs cost me around 25 million. I could easily spend that much on ONE Kinetic Combat recipe. But in the meantime each Smashing Haymaker set is yielding me 1.88% Defense, which is halfway between zero and what the Kinetic Combats will give me. Its a very sound investment while I wait on the Billions I may need for 5 Kinetic combats sets.
Hope that made sense. I sometimes ramble :/
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Quote:Thanks ChaosThese are probably the most obvious ATs to be added (buff/melee, def/control) but you've done well working them. Guardian is a better name than avenger. I particularly like the name and inherent of the trickster.
This is what stalkers should be! It sounds right up my alley in concept and abilities.
Guardian would be a good Hero-side name for sure.
When FAR_REALM posted his AT proposals, I loved the name and the concept of the Trickster, so I sent him a PM and kinda waited awhile before starting this thread.
Hopefully one day the Devs have time to make more baseline ATs available. I personally am a complete Alt-oholic so more is better -
Yeah I like the idea of a Vengeance Inherent. One of my original ideas was to have the "Avenger" gain a 50% damage buff for 60 secs if a teammate dies, and make this stackable. There are alot of "revenge" type things you could do, but unfortunately most would be tied to the team's performance and/or health and for some reason that is a rather unpopular model (ex: Defiance, Vigilance).
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The inherents are particularly difficult to come up with without going into ones already done or not very popular.
For instance, one Idea I had for the Avenger was to have their damage scale up as their team-mates were wounded to an 80% damage cap. This would be similar, but different than the current Defender "Vigilence" but give some offensive "punch" to the AT.
For the Trickster, I thought going with corruptor base damage would be fairly decent, since the use of Defense sets would make them far from "squishy" even with LOW hps.
I like your idea of putting in Placate and Assassin's strike in order to make the set have more interest. In actuality, my first thought was to have Sniper attacks at Tier 4 instead of "Buildup". But I am less a fan of "Sniper" attacks than some folks. Perhaps the inherent could be more like a Critical that only occurs on a mob that is unaware of the "Trickster", which makes use of the placate very important for gaining more damage.
Quote:Just wanted to point out one aspect of the idea. If you notice there are 2 powers which I called "Miscellaneous" and one "Special Debuff". I think these powers should provide some kind of special effect that adds flavor to the AT and stays within the concept of a Trickster. "Hot Feet", "Shiver", "Artic Air" although not "Pets" would certainly be very strong additions to any powerset.For the trickster, the lack of soft control makes this feel subpar. The lack of anything special like the control set's pet doesn't set this apart from the tanker who takes an epic pool set. But overall, it seems to have at least some sense of balance. It'd be weak but defensive...so it probably wouldn't be very popular. -
I read that thread as well.
Interesting Idea, although my thought would be to have a Defender-like option with full team support, but being a melee oriented AT rather than Blasting. I like blasting, but not so much that I want EVERY defender I make to be a ranged toon. It would be nice to have a mix of melee and ranged support characters to choose from. As it stands now, every support character that I have (Controllers, Defenders) uses ranged attacks. There really is no melee option for combining with Forcefields, Radiation, Dark etc... -
Quote:Actually Amy, I wasnt the one that said the Ice AoEs were bugged. My statement was more of a reply to the person that did say that, and I apologize if it seemed I was showing tacit agreement. To my knowledge, no Dev has come out and said they were not working as intended.The AoEs are working as intended.
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Dark only has one toggle and it doesn't have to be used due to the sheer amount of tohit debuffs Dark has. All the more so after one gets Fluffy.
As far as the toggles of Dark and Rad, I used the plural to indicate all three toggles. I was not indicating that Dark had more than one. Also, I believe in one of my posts, I mentioned that Dark had it easier than Rad due to all the other control powers. -
Quote:Hello StratoThat chart shows new vigilance in the worst possible light for low levels. The damage buff from vigilance is most helpful pre-25 and barely noticeable post-35.
There are three factors that make new vigilance feel better from level 12-25 than it feels from 25+.
1) Enhancements are not as strong.
2) Attacks are usually slotted less well pre-25. One attack may have 5 slots, 1 may have 4 and one or two may have 3. Many people slot two Acc. Many people just drop in whatever until level 22. While some attacks may only be getting a 15-20% boost, others are getting more because they are not as well slotted yet.
3) Enemy hitpoints have not started to ramp up as much as they do after level 25.
I believe those factors are important as well.
To be honest, I didnt even know the effect scaled from 1-20.
All the defenders that I have tried on test, including my top two at 50 and 36 noticed quite a nice boost while solo. I didnt run numbers for comparison, just went by feel, and for ALL the defenders I tested it "felt" like a solid improvement (as was expected). -
Quote:Hmmm, well I am not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth, but I would have liked it to help newbie Defenders more than that.I'll save you the time.
Level 1: 6%
Level 2: 6.3%
Level 3: 6.9%
Level 4: 7.5%
Level 5: 8.1%
Level 6: 9%
Level 7-20: +1.5% per level
Level 20-50: 30%
Level 12: 100% + 18% +32% (2 DOs) = 14% boost
Level 17: 100% + 25% +48% (3 DOs) = 17% boost
Level 22: 100% + 30% +95% (3 SOs) = 15% boost -
Quote:I wasn't aware of the buff scaling from 1 to 20. If that is true, then the Devs missed out on a good opportunity to help Defenders in an area that was needed.Unless you are using TO's in the 20+ game then yes. The buff starts at ~6% at lvl 1 and slowly scales up to the full 30 lvl 20 (iirc).
This "help" in the early game that people are citing is less than they believe, though still better than nothing.
That being said, I have been on test lately and playing various newbie Defenders and it seemed that there was a difference greater than what you are citing, but I didnt record numbers and contrast them with Live. Guess I will have to do that. -
Quote:Perhaps my math is completely off, but assuming no +damage powers like assault and no -res, this is what I figured;Except it doesn't scale that well until you already have SOs.
In all reality, this ends up closer to a 15% "base" damage bonus that pushes the Defender closer to the cap. It's not bad, but it's not all that too.
But 66% damage effectively boosted to 81% damage is still a slightly bit anemic. They probably could have just boosted the base all the way there and left it.
SO enhanced attacks (+95%)
Old : 100% +95% = 1.95
New: 100% +30% +95% = 2.25 (which is 15.4% increase)
DO enhanced (+48%)
Old : 100% +48% = 1.48
New: 100% +30% +48% = 1.78 (which is 20.2% increase)
TO enhanced (2 ACC no +DMG)
Old : 100% +0% = 1.00
New: 100% +30% +0% = 1.30 (full 30% increase)
Did I miss something ? -
AVENGER (other name choices include Protector or Guardian)
PRIMARY POWERSETS : selection of Defender/Controller/Corruptor Buff/DeBuff powersets
SECONDARY POWERSETS : selection of Scrapper/Brute/Tanker/Stalker melee sets
HIT POINTS : Medium
DAMAGE : Medium (Damage at Tanker strength)
INHERENT: The Avenger’s ability to shrug off attempts to control his actions comes in the form of a “Fury” type effect. As this “Fury” builds he/she becomes more resistant to most Status effects.
This effect would start at zero and build up during combat based on damage sustained to both the Avenger’s team and to the Avenger themselves.
This Archetype has always been one that I have had a great desire to see implemented. The Melee-Defender is a non-existent “entity” and any attempts to create a “Pseudo-version” are extremely limited. The nature of “Support” powers in general would seem to make it less powerful to combine with attacks that “require” you to be in melee range but I think most support sets are very capable in melee range. This is also why I believe very strongly that the Hit Points need to be on-par with Scrappers/Blasters AND that some means of making this AT more scrapper-like is needed (better damage than defenders baseline and/or Status protection). Due to balance considerations, this could require the Buff/Debuff values reduced to Corruptor/Controller levels. As far as a team role, this would be another flavor of a support character who specializes in getting into melee instead of ranged assault.
TRICKSTER (other name choices include Deceiver or Manipulator)
PRIMARY POWERSETS : selection of Tanker/Brute/Scrapper/Stalker defensive powersets
SECONDARY POWERSETS : a new Hybrid set meant to combine Control powers and Ranged powers
HIT POINTS : Low
DAMAGE : Medium (Blast Powers at Corruptor strength)
INHERENT : Every attack by the Trickster has a “placate” effect which could be helpful solo to allow for better pulling and on a team would simulate the “trickery” that is their hallmark in staying “off the radar” of their enemies. This effect could be varying in strength, due to some powers (AoE for instance) generally being more obvious and less likely to be ignored.
The Trickster is an AT which utilizes control, deception and ranged powers to reduce their foes strengths and yet keep them safely out of harm’s way. Enemies of the “Trickster” that can endure or overcome these “flashy” attempts to keep them “at bay” realize only too late upon entering combat range that the “Trickster” is just as skilled and “slippery” up close as from afar. The LOW hit points of the “Trickster” become his only weakness and they easily fall if the enemy can succeed in pinning them down.
Due to balance concerns, the Defense/Resist values for this AT’s primary may need to be reduced down to scrapper levels.
The following is a rough “template” that would hopefully capture the “spirit” of the Idea;
Tier 1 : Single Target Immobilize (Electric Fence, Ring of Fire, Chillblain)
Tier 2 : Single Target Blast (Lightning Bolt, Fire Blast, Ice Blast)
Tier 3 : Single Target Hold (Tesla Cage, Char, Block of Ice)
Tier 4 : Buildup power
Tier 5 : Miscellaneous ( Short Circuit, Hot Feet, Arctic Air)
Tier 6 : Debuff special (Smoke, Shiver, Quicksand, etc..)
Tier 7 : AoE Attack ( Ball Lightning, Fireball, Ice Storm, etc…)
Tier 8 : Special Attack (high damage single target or, pet type like Voltaic etc…)
Tier 9 : AoE HOLD (Total Domination, Cinders, Glacier etc…)
*** I would like to credit FAR_REALM for first using the name "Trickster" as an AT idea. I liked the name and the image it "conjures" so much, that I used it here for one of my AT proposals.
I would especially like to thank STRATO_NEXUS for taking the time to read thru this proposal and offer suggestions, especially in the area of making the post shorter and more to the point.
Bio -
Quote:One other thing to consider with this buff though, is that it may be a relatively small increase for a level 50 "tricked-out" defender, its a much larger boost to the PRE-SO defender. And this is something that I think was very much needed for the AT.Personally, I do agree that the idea that this buff is mostly a minor change, because Defenders are pretty much okay, is a valid one. Note, however, that while Defenders do have an Inherent that give them the equivalent of the Endurance efficiency I noted above, it does NOT give them the faster defeat. This would, just in a different form. As such, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.
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Quote:I think Ice Blast has quite a significant solo boost over other secondaries even barring the "bugged" AoEs. Freeze Ray at 16th is quite a "cool" power to help with solo work.... Ice blast is also very solid for single target damage, which makes it worth considering anyways for solo play as a defender. The toughest part of the leveling curve if you pick ice blast is getting to level 29, at which point you can begin putting extra slots into bitter ice blast.
Unless you regulary fight Bosses solo (Unlikely at 16th), this is a type of power that most defenders have to wait as much as 12 more levels for.
Just my opinion though.