Bionic_Flea

Originally Posted by macskull

If there are heavies available, take them.

Never. There's only one rule in zone PvP, and it's simple: if someone is an enemy, kill them. You might get crap for "breaking up a duel" but that's when you politely inform them that they can duel in peace in the arena via the /arenalist command. If they choose not to listen, then hey, free rep for you.

Originally Posted by Arbiter Kim

Hey guys,

Can I get any specific missions? Were they radio missions?

Originally Posted by Fulmens

Why does everyone think I'm advocating new switches in the software, instead of new ways of playing?

IF people agree that this is a good idea, THEN everyone makes characters that are level 49 or lower, turning off XP as needed, and IO's [or SO's] up their build so that they don't have 2 of a set, don't have any "single-slot powers" and don't, in short, get any set bonuses.

People can look at your character and see if you're street-legal.

Originally Posted by macskull

--- Before I begin: the TL;DR version is in bold italics. ---

Well, here we go. I’m going to post this with the full knowledge that it will probably never land on someone’s desk, or that no redname other than a moderator will set eyes on it. But I’m going to post it anyways. Why? Because I care. I like this game and its players – I may not like the decisions of the developers within the last six months or so, but the people I play the game with are important, moreso than the game itself. I sent off this post as an email to NCSoft as well – I think it’s time I made my voice heard.

We have been told several times now that the developers consider post-I13 PvP (“new PvP”) to be less flawed and more fun than the old system. Problem is, we haven’t been told why. Do the developers themselves consider it to be more fun? Is this input relayed from players or surveys? Here’s where the first problem arises. This problem is simple: when you decided to forge ahead with these PvP changes, you knew at the very beginning that you were not designing this new system with the current crop of PvPers in mind. From the very beginning of this idea, it was a poorly-formulated one – what kind of business plans a major overhaul to a small segment of its consumer base while completely disregarding that very segment? You were warned by your colleagues and your early playtesters that the changes would likely not go over well – but you followed through anyways. When Issue 13 went into open beta and everyone got to see for themselves what the changes were, it was a mess, and rightly so. What’s worse, up until Lighthouse’s now famous post about the “PvP segment,” you continually told the existing PvP population that you were working with them on implementing their suggestions into patches both during open beta and after issue launch. Very little, if any, of those suggestions were actually implemented even remotely similarly to how they were suggested.

The PvP changes in I13 nearly caused the death of high-end organized PvP. For an overhaul that was supposed to increase the popularity (and population) of PvP, that should have been a first sign that something was very wrong. Almost every test ladder team disbanded and hundreds of subscriptions were cancelled in the month or so after open beta began. PvPers were upset, and rightly so – they had spent years without any official support forming ladders, making rules, setting up matches, and making detailed and comprehensive lists of suggestions to better the system. When I13 was released those PvPers were dismayed to find almost nothing they had asked for, and almost everything they hadn’t. Some of the best players in the game just gave up everything they’d spent years on and left. The ladder is just beginning to get back off the ground again – but for what? Will you go through a few months from now and make more seemingly willy-nilly and unasked-for changes, and then keep telling the players you’re listening to their feedback while you’re actually doing just the opposite? For the future of this game’s PvP and this game in general, I hope not.

Anyways, I’d like to begin by taking a look at the post that sparked this all. At the onset, we have:
I think the people that were best-qualified to say what tweaks and changes PvP needed were those that spent almost all their in-game time PvPing. Yet those lists were largely ignored, and some heavy-handed rules were implemented with very little player feedback taken into consideration. First, you assumed that there needed to be competition between ATs and powersets. Does this same “competition” need to be there in PvE? Is it unfair and unbalanced that Tankers have more defense or resistance than Defenders? Is it unfair and unbalanced that Blasters outdamage Controllers? Each AT has its own specific role in PvE, and the same should apply in PvP. You hoped these changes would promote greater variety in arena PvP – instead, the opposite has happened. Just prior to I13, the hero and villain test PvP ladders were blooming – people had roles for many powersets (not all, mind you, but that’s due more to the design of those powersets – for example, when you want to solo large groups of enemies really really fast, do you bring along a single-target character? No – but does that mean you need to completely readjust those enemies? Also no). People were using Storms, Rads, TAs, Poisons, Kins, Sonics, Therms – you name it, it was probably used at some point. Now, thanks to the options put in place and the kludgy way the system works, there’s one lineup that has become the “gotta find a counter to this!” team. When a particular powerset or even AT is being used in a match because of only one power, there might be something wrong.

You are correct in that the basic core systems are mostly the same – heals still heal (for a while, but then when they’re needed the most, they can’t be relied on), attacks still deal damage (kind of… and some of those attacks are just crazy), and holds still hold (for a few seconds). It’s what you did to those systems that is causing so much hostility and animosity. You also mention that the changes make PvP more available to different ATs and skill levels. Problem is, you accomplished that goal by essentially eliminating what makes each AT unique, and by leveling the “skill field” to where no skill aside from button mashing is really required.

Now, on to the meat of Castle’s post. Let’s start with diminishing returns (DR).
First – why was this particular change needed? Some of the given reasoning was that it would help close the gap between SO’d builds and high-end purpled builds. However, given the implementation of PvP IOs in Issue 14, this seems to be a bit of a double-standard. What is the point of giving PvPers the ability to have PvP-only set bonuses if those bonuses don’t even grant their full effectiveness in a PvP environment? I can somewhat understand diminishing returns applying to outside buffs, and that makes sense to me – to a point. What I can’t understand, however, is why you would make diminishing returns apply to someone’s own set bonuses. That’s like saying “Sorry, we don’t care that you spent a billion inf on your build to make it the best it can be. People complained so now we’re going to bring you down to their level.”

This change seems based on the misconception that you needed IOs to PvP – several of my characters PvP’d on SOs before I13, and with DR in place I have no real drive to IO my characters except maybe for +HP set bonuses (since HP doesn’t diminish). Giving PvPers access to purples, PvP recipes, and other high-end IO sets, and then reducing the benefits those items give, isn’t a good way to encourage participation or usage of those IO sets. You say there’s no way to differentiate between IO bonuses and other buffs – I say there should be. If you are going to “make a full-time commitment to PvP from now on” as you said you were at the I13 launch, you need to start listening to the players who still PvP, before you lose even more of them. This change also seems to be based on the assumption that having a few people buff one character to near-tankmage status is a terrible thing that should not happen – but I propose that this happens in PvE as well. Should you also implement diminishing returns to buffs in PvE content? For the sake of consistency, I think you should. That will go over very well with the playerbase, I assure you.

The DR caps for some aspects are terribly strict – for example, my Mastermind can’t seem to push above 20% defense without extreme effort (even Power Boosted Vengeance – normally 40% how I have it slotted - adds a measly 4% on top of the 15% he’s got in PvP, which is half of what he has in PvE). My 50% defense on my SR gets reduced to maybe 30-35% in zones, and his 95% defense debuff resistance is closer to 70%, after factoring in the free debuff resistance that all melee ATs get in PvP now. More importantly, even the “free” stuff added to your stats in PvP zones (base resistances, debuff resistance, etc) is subject to diminishing returns – so you’re adding to that character, but they can’t even take full advantage of those buffs? That doesn’t make sense to me. The fact that sturdier ATs like Tankers benefit more from external buffs than do their more fragile counterparts like Blasters confounds me – Tankers are already ahead of the game in the survivability department simply because of their higher base HP and stronger defense/resistance values. But now you tell me that they should benefit more from external buffs than do the lower-HP ATs with weaker defenses? Maybe I’m missing something here. I propose the DR curves be cut in half, and at the same time cut in half the amount of base resistances squishies get in PvP (40% is a bit ridiculous – but go figure, even with that and my patron shield, I’m only at 39% after DR, and Sonic or Therm buffs add almost nothing). This provides a real reason for PvPers to invest their time in obtaining IO sets, because they will be more useful again – not saying they aren’t now, just that they’ve lost much of their appeal since I13. Additionally, the real numbers display needs to accurately reflect DR’d values of [u]all[u] attributes. I know when I go into a PvP zone on my Warshade that I don’t actually have perma-Hasten (the equivalent, in his case, of about 185% global recharge) – but the real numbers readout says I do.

And last, the most egregious issue in my opinion: diminishing returns nullifies the roles of some buffers. Want to bring a Sonic to a match? Sure, but all they’ll be good for is caging and the –res, since Clarity barely makes a difference and is only really good for the +perception now, the shields add only a few percentage points of resistance to the ATs that could most use them, and the large bubble no longer grants mez protection and offers very little resistance benefit. Want to bring an Emp? Sure, but CM is only useful for the +perception, Fortitude might be worthwhile for a bit of +def (but that gets DR’d) on a resist-based character, or a bit of +tohit (again, DR’d), but mostly for the +damage, since that seems to be what everything is balanced around now. Same thing for a Therm – shields aren’t worth much for the ATs that need them most, Forge is mostly useful for the +damage, Thaw is worthwhile for the slow resistance, but that gets DR’d too. Kins are useful for the –KB in Increase Density (but that gets DR’d), and not so much for Speed Boost or Inertial Reduction, because everything gets suppressed (unless you turn suppression off, in which case they’re not needed either). Need I go on?

Next, let’s talk about travel suppression.
This, more than anything else, is what drove away many of the hardcore PvPers. This game had one of the most unique (not necessarily the best, mind you) PvP engines in the industry simply because of the pace of combat. Travel suppression killed that, and it killed the open feeling that PvP zones gave – you had a huge battleground that you could engage opponents on, dodging around buildings, into tunnels, through forests, anything like that. Now, due to travel suppression, a fight is confined to a smaller area unless someone has phase. Previously, if you were facing difficult odds, you had the option to retreat to regroup with your teammates, or try to tactically outsmart the opponents. Those aspects are now gone – all your pursuers have to do is keep pegging you with attacks, ensuring you’re permanently suppressed, until they can all gather up on you to kill you quickly. At that point you’d better hope Phase or Hibernate is up, or you’re dead. Let’s say I’m on my Therm, and things start to get a bit dicey. My HP is dropping fast, and Hibernate isn’t up yet. I am left with three choices: click Warmth, get suppressed, and get swarmed; try to run, get hit, get suppressed, and get swarmed; or just stand there and die. Not only am I committing virtual suicide by even attempting to heal myself, my heals are also getting less and less effective at keeping me alive at the very moment I need them the most.

I realize the list I quoted above is no longer entirely correct (for example, buffs don’t suppress anymore – at least not some: Forge causes suppression, Fortitude doesn’t, for example). But, let’s ask this question: Why was suppression, in this form, considered necessary? I can think of two reasons. First, to give melee ATs a better chance at getting kills against ranged ATs, and second, to ensure that once a fight starts, someone dies. You failed spectacularly at the first point – kind of. You succeeded in that most of the people in PvP zones these days are Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes, but failed in that the current “favorite” powersets for those ATs are once that bring ranged attacks to the table – Spines and Super Strength, notably. Even on characters with no in-set ranged attacks, they are practically required to take ranged attacks from an epic or patron pool just to be competitive. The problem with this is that the duration of suppression from being attacked is too short compared to the duration of suppression for making an attack, even a melee one. Two seconds of suppression on your opponent doesn’t help close the distance if you are suppressed for three seconds. I propose that the I13 suppression system be thrown out the window and replaced with one similar to what TribHavok suggested during the I13 beta (by the way, PvPers were told you were going to implement that system, and it never happened). That is:

* Suppression functions identically to PvE suppression, except:
* Being hit by a melee attack from a melee AT (not a ranged attack, such as Spirit Shark, Hurl, or Impale, from those ATs) causes two seconds of suppression. This, combined with the autohit -75% range in Taunt/Confront, will help ensure both that ranged ATs will need to stay fairly close to the melee ATs, while allowing the melee AT to close distance with the ranged attacker more easily.

Next, let’s take a look at the control powers changes.
I applaud the efforts to make mez effects less binary in nature, but I don’t think converting protection into resistance was the way to go. The only positive I can see from this entire change is that I don’t have to bring a tray full of Break Frees into zones on a squishy anymore. NPCs in zones are particularly dangerous because their mezzes follow the pre-I13 rules – in other words, if you’re mezzed by an NPC while there are enemy players around, you will die. I cannot think of a way to change this system that does not involve reverting back to the I12 system, but if anyone has suggestions, please do so. In the meantime, I have two gripes with the specifics of this system: first, NPCs are ridiculously overpowered right now should you be unfortunate enough to get too close to one; second, the mez procs (chance for stun, immobilize, hold) in some IO sets have not been standardized to the I13 rules and some last for up to 8 seconds – twice as long as a Dominator or Controller’s base hold. These should be changed to a fixed duration of two seconds in the interests of consistency with non-control-AT mez powers.

The other problem I see coming from this is essentially the “normalization” of all ATs. By drastically reducing the control ability of Dominators and Controllers, and by increasing the damage on their mezzes, you’ve basically turned them into Blasters with less HP, removing one of the unique aspects of those ATs. The change of focus from dynamic team roles to “damage damage damage” destroys team balance and makes PvP more like a free-for-all slugfest. Support can’t support, control can’t control, healers can’t heal – about the only thing anyone is good for is a bit of debuffing and damage.

Next, heal decay.
This is probably secondary to travel suppression in killing the pre-I13 ladder teams. I know the system was tweaked since this post (there’s no longer 0% effectiveness) but heal decay does not belong in PvP in an MMO. Why was it added? This system ensures that the only heals that are really reliable when healing is most needed are Power Boosted Absorb Pain or Share Pain. This system also ensures that spiking is now a skill-less damage spam until the target can no longer be healed, after which time the target must either phase or die. As a healer on a PvP team, it’s my job to keep people’s HP bars in the green. I can’t do that if my 400 HP heal is only healing them for 75 HP (yes, I’m using real numbers here). It’s at that point that I have to say “Sorry, I tried.” Quite frankly, that sucks. My buffs to enhance their survivability aren’t fully effective, so they take more damage than they should, and then I can’t heal that damage away? That makes no sense to me. I would happily accept heal decay on self-heal powers (such as Healing Aura or Radiant Aura) if ally heal powers did not cause decay because that makes me feel worthless at a time when my teammates need me the most, and that’s not fun. If you refuse that prospect, lessen the severity of heal decay in general – heals are there to keep people alive when other methods have failed, and reducing their effectiveness is reducing the survivability of other players. Why not add heal decay to PvE as well? I mean, if PvP heal decay is any indication, being kept alive is not working as intended.

On to damage powers and damage calculation.
Let me start off by saying I agree with the idea of DPA balancing, but I don’t agree with how it was implemented. DPA balancing should have been implemented at the launch of the game, for the entire game, not just one part of the game nearly five years after launch. The reason adding this system to PvP now is a problem is simple: things just don’t make sense. Let’s take Flares and Blaze as our first examples. Flares recharges faster, uses less endurance, has a much longer range, and can be used while mezzed, and does almost as much damage as Blaze, the supposed “hard hitter” of the Fire Blast set. Next, this means that some pool power attacks (I’m looking at you, Flurry and Kick) which every AT has access to hit harder than some in-set attacks. How is this balanced? There are certain roles for certain ATs, melee damage should not be a generalist role. But, I forgot – there are no roles now, thanks to all this normalization.

Additionally, some (but not all) AoEs got hit upside the head with a baseball bat during this damage rebalancing, which is amusing because AoE attack powers play very little role in PvP (Fire Blasters used Fireball because it did damage comparable to Fire Blast, making it another useful attack). Now, you might as well use Brawl instead of Fireball. Heck, even tier 9 nukes got neutered. It’s not a sign of good knowledge of the system if the damage on rarely-used powers is lowered to the point where they’re not even worth using, period. At least dual builds will let us take Flurry and skip Blaze on our PvP build, and skip Flurry and take Blaze on our PvE build. One of your stated goals of the I13 changes was to encourage diversity, but these examples directly counter that. Everyone taking Flurry and Kick and ignoring their set powers isn’t diversity, it’s stupidity - yet that’s exactly what’s happened.

Last but not least, base resistances.
Again with the normalization stuff. Why didn’t you just change it so every AT had equal hitpoints in PvP, since you yourself said that’s what you were aiming for? Let’s say you implemented these base resistances in PvE as well as PvE – suddenly you have Blasters with capped resistances running around, unkillable Defenders soloing mobs of bosses, and Controllers breezing their way through wave after wave of mobs with zero risk. Doesn’t that sound broken or unbalanced to you? A Blaster has low hit points and low defenses because of their incredible ranged damage output – if they want survivability, they play it smart while solo or they find teammates who can give them that survivability. These base resistances are unnecessary and unbalanced assuming competent support-oriented teammates. Point is, not everyone needs to get lots and lots of kills to be PvPing – some like playing support, but these changes gutted that ability. Lower the bonus resists for squishies to 20-25%. Give an arena option to turn off the bonus resistances completely. With DR off, squishies are running around with capped resists, non-decaying self-heals, and non-decaying ally heals. The alternative, of course, is to play with DR on, which results in a skill-less damage spam until heals cease to be effective, and neither option is particularly attractive.

I do, however, agree with the “everything grants resists to everything” idea because it means you can focus more on the “flavor” powers in an APP/PPP pool without having to worry whether or not the armor in that pool will be adequate. However, this comes at the expense of some sets losing their unique properties – WP and Stone had some protection from Psi damage, for example, which made those sets unique in that regard. Ice Armor had slow protection. So did SR. Now every melee status toggle/click power has those debuff resistances and every set has protection in some form against Psi damage.

In closing: perhaps the biggest problem of all with the I13 changes it that while they were designed to bring new players into the fold, there was nothing done to inform the players of the new PvP rulesets in the game. Sure, there were the forums and word of mouth. If you are committed to PvP, and want to see it succeed, then YOU need to take the steps to ensure that it does – document these changes in the game so new players aren’t wondering why things work differently. Give organized PvP developer support. And most importantly, listen to player feedback – don’t be stubborn and say “Sorry, this isn’t negotiable.” Be willing to compromise and REALLY take player feedback into account. After all, you could have access to all the data in the world, but if you interpret it wrong, it doesn’t do anyone any good. The ones who know the system the best aren’t the ones that have all the data, but those who spend their time actually using the system.

Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee

Pocket D is a no power zone? I'm sure I have flown around in there from time to time.

Originally Posted by Arbiter Kim

Originally Posted by Ice Knight

Its the 16th, I will see if I can get the title changed.


Ice

Originally Posted by UberGuy

You know, I was suspicious of that possibility, given the new patches and all. I fled to Ouro as soon as we were done. Then I fled in general because I was late meeting friends for dinner.

Did it eat your reward like in the past?