BigFish

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

Maybe the devs could add something like this to the forum banner, so solo players could be updated on their progress towards catering for their needs?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Its a question of degree. We didn't used to have loot in any significant form, standard enhancements notwithstanding. But I think its fair to say the invention system was a good addition to the game. Sure, as with all loot systems it can encourage bad behavior in some, but it doesn't *require* players to expend huge amounts of inf making builds that everyone else now considers mandatory in performance. Heck, one of my strongest builds is one of the cheapest in my Kat/Invuln. No purples, no PvP, and at the moment maybe one LotG (more coming eventually, but I keep forgetting to go back and buy them). The build is still the same build I put in at I9 release in fact.

We also did not have non-tradeable items, or bind on pickup/bind on equip logic. But I don't think things like Candy Canes, Vanguard Merits, or even Shards (in and of themselves) have significantly hurt the game. They've been subsumed into the culture of the game without significantly damaging it.

In a sense, what the devs are doing now isn't just a change that can be argued to be "like other MMOs" in terms of the details which we are discussing now, but even in terms of existence. One way this game was "different" was in literally not having an end game at all. I'm sure some people interpreted that absence as both deliberate (rather than a lack of resources) and beneficial. No matter how solo-friendly, no matter at what difficulty, and no matter with what benefits, there are actual players that think the lack of an endgame itself was a way we were better than other MMOs. No treadmill at 50: you can "complete" an alt, and move on to another one. The question is never just a question of being different, but being different in the ways you want to be different. Do we want to be different in always having a solo path introduced simultaneously with all teamed paths to all rewards within the end game? Why not go all the way and decide to be different by never adding any further progress to the game? That's not a rhetorical question. There's at least one player that makes the argument that the existence of an end game in and of itself detracts from the game's simplicity. And in the past there were many other players who, prior to the devs actually announcing they were going to make an end game, would have agreed with him that this was a strength of the game.

Its so easy to say just make sure that whatever you add to the game is something no one will object to, because a lot of people implicitly assume that while different people want different things, they all want more things. Not everyone does. Are the people who don't want endless progression at the top less deserving than the people who want an explicit solo path at the top? That is a rhetorical question: of course they aren't. Because its not a question of deserving. We don't decide who's deserving of attention when we update a game. We decide what will be in the best interests of the game overall, knowing we can't please everyone.

MMOs are a diverse set of games. No matter what the devs do, unless they never add anything new to the game ever again it will always be possible to point to another MMO and claim Paragon Studios is "just" copying them. I think, however, the Incarnate system itself is unique (so far as I know) in terms of what its going to ultimately do, and the end game constellation as a whole is unique in many ways. The fact that it contains raids can't be just dismissed as genre copying: MMOs have only so many kinds of content in terms of cooperative play: there's solo content, teamed content, multi-teamed cooperative content, general cooperative content, faction play, server-wide cooperative content, and player vs player content. And every single one of those existed in some form prior to City of Heroes even launching. No matter what we do, we will be using mechanical elements that have already been invented. And dimensionally speaking, at some point when you add more challenging content, it has to be balanced around teams. The reason is fundamental, particularly in City of Heroes: every archetype and every powerset combination has weaknesses. Once content gets beyond a certain level of complexity, it begins to target too many of them for a single player to be able to overcome. The only way to make content harder without making it more complex is to simply scale the numbers bigger, which is what the difficulty sliders do. But that's not the sort of challenge many players find attractive.

None of this precludes a solo path alternative. But its not easy to build for a number of reasons. It can quickly degenerate to trivial farming (something that is often completely unavoidable) and it can be very difficult to balance against the reward generation rate in the teamed content. It can be easy to make the mistake of making a solo path that is tuned for solo progress rates that inadvertently creates an exploitable teamed path that is even faster, and contrawise it can be just as easy to make a solo path that exists but is impractical to execute. And everyone thinks they have the easy solution to this one: just make one they are personally comfortable with, and handwave all other problems away as being unimportant.

The devs don't have that option.

Originally Posted by Void_Huntress

.. zipper?

... wait, wait. These aren't mutants or shapeshifters..

... these are people in FURSUITS!

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Well you know what they say...

Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning

I don't know, I prematurely self contragulate myself all the time. Nothing wrong with that. Grows hair on my palms.

Oh, wait, you meant to be derogatory. Well....that's okay.

In all seriousness though, yes, I have an opinion. My opinion is that you're setting up and then moving goalposts for the devs - they haven't added solo content and you want them to acknowledge it...which they did. Only when that happened some on that side of the argument thought that that wasn't good enough. And maybe he shouldn't have mentioned that we should expect team oriented content in an MMO, but he DID mention that they were looking into it. There might be several reasons why they need to think about how to implement a solo option when they clearly have a deterministic way to get a notice of the well in team content but they're not sure how to also implement that in solo content. I can think of several reasons why, off the bat for instance, it might not be workable with their current ideas with how the system should work to not make the Notice craftable by shards. It actually defeats the purpose of making the Notice drop when you complete some kind of task. It also might make it difficult for them to decide whether you should be a recipient of the WST other drops if you got the Notice in a solo fashion and then did the WST, which clearly shouldn't then drop another notice.

With all of that said, moving the goal posts for a dev who's job description doesn't really include talking with people on the forums is at best annoying and at worst disrespectful. Complaining that they also don't care about you when he just spoke on the forums to specifically say they're looking into it is the kind of desperate hyperbole that makes the devs not want to post on the forums in the first place.

I'm not an advocate of dev worship. I'm an advocate of purposeful constructive intelligent debate, none of which we're really getting. I understand that that's the internet, and I understand that I'm essentially tilting at windmills hoping for something different, but I'll just keep trying. Hey, I teach teenagers for a living. What do you expect me to be? Rational?

Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning

I find it hysterical that with that kind of attitude you've proven her right....

Originally Posted by Traegus

though i have no interest in this animal pack, and honestly the amount of "furry" adoration on these forums sometimes disturbs me, i do so hope that this pack is done well. because that should give some indication of the level of the steampunk pack right around the corner, and that i AM looking forward to. so, lets all hope for numerous pieces (i agree the last couple have been kinda lite on content for their price), all well done, no major clipping issues, and an obvious intent to utilize the graphics capabilities of this game to near max. this will all bode well for my impending steam punky goodness.

Originally Posted by MajorPrankster

Funny, I thought it was people not being rational and patient that was causing unhappy subs.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

We did a good job of unequivocally proving even that was too much.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

Yes, the devs are spending time and money on something that a subsection of the playerbase doesn't like.

Show me ONE thing the devs have EVER done that was met with universal approval and praise from 100% of the playerbase.

You won't find it to show me. Someone has complained about every single thing the devs have ever done with this game. Pleasing 100% of the people who play it 100% of the time is a complete impossibility.



So YOUR enjoyment is more important than anyone else's. How is that any different from what you're accusing ME of?

With that sentence there, you basically just told me that the devs should not be allowed to spend time and money on something unless it is something that YOU enjoy, and to hell with everyone else.

By accusing me of putting my enjoyment over everyone else's and then making that statement, you have delved into the wonderful world of hypocrisy, enjoy your stay.

Originally Posted by Starflier

All 5 of the trailers I saw in and around the Super Bowl broadcast made me excited for this summer's crop of movies: Thor, Captain America, Transformers 3, Cowboys and Aliens, and Fast Five.

Movies lately have just been lacking that flair.

Originally Posted by Scythus

Good thing that isn't the issue here.

Originally Posted by MajorPrankster

It is not, at all, for me, about winning anything.

The reality here is that right now to get a NotW, you have to run a TF. In the next Issue, there will be other ways and that the developers are looking at specifically, ways that solo players can get a NotW, be that in i20 or beyond.

That's it. There is no more to it.

Accept reality and be at peace or fight it and be upset. Each person has a choice.

But, in the end, it's about accepting reality.

And if you think that people who actually like the game and respect the developers are going to let others trash it without voicing their opinions, well, I am not sure how to even address such an outlook.

Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA

Erm, doesn't this basically describe everything the developers do? There's always going to be a larger or smaller subsection of people who aren't interested in a specific piece of content the developers add.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

It's not.

The 1-50 content has not changed at all.

You can go from level 1 to level 50 without ever having been on a team.

The difference between leveling from 1-50 and becoming an Incarnate is that 1-50 is going to happen just by playing the game, while becoming an Incarnate is optional.

Yes, as of right now, teaming is required for becoming an Incarnate. But you do not HAVE to do it.

Your complaint is that it is forced teaming.

Please explain to me how exactly it is "forced" teaming when the content that requires teaming is completely optional. Show me ANYTHING in the game that says you have no choice in whether or not you become an Incarnate.

Is becoming an Incarnate MANDATORY? No, it isn't. I see no point in complaining about "forced" teaming in a part of the game you are not forced to do.

Originally Posted by TonyV

I just don't like it when people insist that 100% of the game must cater to their play style. 97% of this game is soloable, but that's not good enough, is it? No, it must be 100%, no less, or else the game is so crappy, either it is going down the tubes or I'm going to ragequit. Screw all the hard work the devs have put into it in the past, screw all of the 97% that does cater to my play style, screw all those throngs of players lining up in the WST contact zones who are delighted with the update, screw the possibility (arguably likelihood) that there will be a way to solo it in the near- to medium-term future.

No, forget all that. Because I'm so incredibly petty that I can't spend a couple of hours out of the hundreds or thousands I play tolerating other people, or because of some weird line in the sand on some misguided principle based on some questionable at best perception of some "slippery slope" we're going down, I'm going to get all worked up because there's one reward in the game I want that I can't get 100% my way.

Now, don't get me wrong. Despite the ad hominem attacks on me, if you want to state your opinion that you don't like the WST idea, by gummy, go for it. I've actually heard and pondered the rational arguments in this thread, and I've come to the conclusion that they're simply not convincing to me for reasons I've already stated. If the devs provided some alternate way to get the reward, I really don't care, more power to them. However, if they don't, I'm fine with that, too, and I think anyone raging over such a decision, resorting to irrational demands and meaningless threats to leave is being extremely arrogant and childish.

For the more rational people out there, I will say this yet again. I have seen the exact "I can't get rewards/play style" arguments here applied to other rewards. It almost invariably arises when discussing how one must enter a PvP zone to get Shivans, nukes, and one of the Rogue Isles history badges. I've also seen it applied by badge hunters who don't want to do task forces.

Sometimes, I even empathize with those people. I don't like PvP. Still, I frequently venture into the PvP zones to get the rewards. Sometimes, I get my butt repeatedly handed to me, and that's not fun at all. Nevertheless, it's part of the game, it's not how I have to spend the majority of my time, so it's no big deal. (And believe me, getting those Warburg nukes can take me as long or longer than a WST task force!) And even though I don't like PvP, I've even played in some Arena matches now and then anyway, usually during some player-run event, just because once in a blue moon I'm in a funky "what the hell" kind of mood to do something different.

So please, to the QQers posting here, enough of the melodrama. The devs aren't out to persecute you. The game isn't going to die in the near future because of this. The vast majority of people love it, or at worst, are indifferent to it. Matt and Melissa aren't losing any sleep at your threat to quit. If you really are as miserable as you say you are, that's too bad, but I don't have any sympathy. It's a state of mind that you are choosing to be in, not the horrible injustice you're perceiving.

Now if you'll excuse me, this thread is officially boring now. I'm going to go do something more productive because these posts have gotten very silly.

Originally Posted by Eiko-chan

Deciding that certain rewards have to be awarded by teaming can be the result of either datamining showing a large portion of people teaming or datamining showing a large portion of people not teaming, depending on what the goal of the person looking at the data is.

Originally Posted by Golden Girl

The devs do a lot of datamining to get gameplay stats and trends - the fact that the Incarnate system seems to be focusing more on team play than soloing seems to be a pretty big clue that their data feedback shows them that this is the way to go.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

"Mistakes were made" is probably the vaguest, least informative statement I have heard in my life, right up there with "Things are improving." Yes, I'm saying mistakes were made. When? By whom? In what? To what effect?

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

As a fine connoisseur of all things American cartoon, anime, "furry" artword and concept drawings, I will say that "human anatomy" isn't always the holy grail of artistry that people present it as. In fact, I've found myself the most bored with characters who are the most realistically presented and proportioned. That's part of the reason why I only have a mere handful of ordinary-looking humans in my character roster, and most of mine are aliens, robots, animals, mystical creatures, inanimate constructs, abstract apparitions or generally anything that has a humanoid body, but is not a literal human.

That's not to say I enjoy Rob Leifeld's artowrk, in whole or on part (that instance when one guy hits another WITH HIS CROTCH comes to mind) I nevertheless enjoy some of his designs, anatomical incorrectness and all. I take my fiction as a form of escapism, and if it gives me cool themes and images, I'm more than willing to overlook its lack of realism.

Rob Leifeld is as famous and influential because - whether some want to admit it or not - people liked what he made and sought to copy it. You can condemn society, tastes or judgement if you choose to do so, but you cannot argue with history. Even if no-one will admit to liking his artwork now, enough liked it to make the man part of popular culture in the past, and that counts for something.