BellaStrega

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Are you serious Kali?? You must have turned blind if you think tankers do ok in PvP.

Remember that devs balance for teams. Just exactly what do a tank contribute with in a PvP team that no other AT can do better?

Damage, no. Buffs, no. Protecting team members, no. Debuffs, no...

So perhaps a tank can take a bit more beating due to more HP but since a tank is not really that big of a threath WHO CARES!

Master Minds and Dominators at least have tools that make a difference in PvP. Tanks just hang around.

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Oh, please. Tankers do 80% blaster damage and have many times more durability. What tankers can't really do is fulfill their intended role in PVP. Taunt's nerfed against other players and punchvoke doesn't work at all.

I did not "turn blind." All I had to do was PVP with a tanker and against tankers.

But, wow, "a tank is not really that big of a threat?" "Tanks just hang around?" I have to ask - have you played a tanker in PVP?

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They were phased, you missed getting them within the pbAoE, or a bug.

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They weren't phased. They were all in melee range. A bug is remotely possible, but... on multiple occasions I did not hit every target within range.

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Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.

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Maybe Invinc needs it, but to be quite honest, I haven't needed it the least bit in my Chilling Embrace... I mean it's an auto-hit slow and no one's ever AS'd me through it. Tack on the Artic mastery pool and Teleport foe, and no one will escape from your melee range if don't want them too... definitely not SuperLeapers.

..I *think* anyway... Maybe if they had SB on them they could...

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Right but, if Blazing Aura, Icicles, and Mudpots benefit from the boost (guessing that the do), why shouldn't Chilling Embrace, Invincibility, and Energy Absorption?

Truth is, I'm guessing that auto-hit powers are being excempt from the PvP fix altogether - there's always a catch to such changes, and they just haven't bothered to give the complete story yet - which likely won't happen until patch notes.

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I noticed in PVP that Energy Absorption appeared to not be auto-hit. I used it once in the middle of a crowd of scrappers and got no endurance back.

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Yeah but Ice performs above the norm in PvP...
If you'd switch to Ice/EM in Warburg it would be even more powerful.
What's better than Defense in PvP? Resist. (+Acc)
Better than Resist? Healing. (Criticals/Unresisted)
Better than Healing? Slow.
You're a muscled up controller.

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That's, er, nice. I think there's a difference between having a rebuttal and just throwing up smoke to maintain an illusion.

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That's, er, not an arguement.
Ice is the best Tanker primary for PvP.
You can't judge Scrappers in PvP based on Regen only.
You can't judge Stalkers in PvP based on EM only.
You can't judge Tankers in PvP based on Ice/ only.

Your post is like saying "My FotM feels overpowered already so your AT has no problems AFAIC"

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No, because I was talking about how much damage I was able to do more than how much I was able to dodge damage. To be perfectly honest, I took a hell of a lot of damage in those fights and really did well, defensively, when defenders on my team hit me with bubbles and fortitude. The things that helped my tanker do well were:

- heavy alpha strike
- status protection
- high hit points

All of those things are possible for any tanker. The invuln tanker running around was harder to take out than I was, because he could just hit unstoppable - and become literally unstoppable - for three minutes or so.

Anyway, I never said tankers don't have problems. I said they're not useless in PVP. I said my character felt overpowered in PVP. I responded to this claim:[ QUOTE ]
Tanks are AWFUL in pvp, though I really thought dominators were/are worse.

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Tankers are not awful in PVP. Tankers seem to do fairly well, and not just Ice. I don't think you can really begin to put Dominators and Tankers in the same boat as far as PVP performance goes.

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*Sigh*

Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:

1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.

2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.

3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.

So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.

And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.

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I tested this as much as I could in PVP with my tanker (Ice/Stone), and in my experience, if you do not have decent range, this stuff just doesn't work as well as you say.

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Yeah but Ice performs above the norm in PvP...
If you'd switch to Ice/EM in Warburg it would be even more powerful.
What's better than Defense in PvP? Resist. (+Acc)
Better than Resist? Healing. (Criticals/Unresisted)
Better than Healing? Slow.
You're a muscled up controller.

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That's, er, nice. I think there's a difference between having a rebuttal and just throwing up smoke to maintain an illusion.

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From Castle's post :

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I think you're letting your ATist rhetoric blind you to the point that Castle's list strictly discusses solo PvP, which he explicitly qualifies. Furthermore, he goes on to vaguely suggest that PvP-performance hierarchy is wholly different on teams -- which is ostensibly what PvP is built around.

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In team play, most AT's are within 30% of one another. The few exceptions should be looked at. Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors and Dominators are NOT at the bottom of this list, by any stretch.

"Release the numbers" -- I can't. It really is proprietary info, and the generalities I'm providing are about as far as I can go.

"OMG! He's nerfing EM!" -- Nope, at least not for I7.

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Could it be that tankers are the exception that are going to be "looked at" in terms of PvP?

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It makes sense.

Tanks are AWFUL in pvp, though I really thought dominators were/are worse.

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I played my Ice/Stone tanker in Warburg, and I have never before or since felt as overpowered playing this game as I did in that circumstance.

So, er, "awful?"

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People that defend Blaster's melee attacks always say that there is risk for them going into melee but you have to realize that your melee attack has a status effect on it which makes that risk really low.

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Not all of the melee attacks have status effects, and not all of those that do have status effects have reliable effects. One secondary doesn't have a single melee attack with any kind of status effect at all.

And yes, the status effects do reduce risk. They should make it easier to manage risk. Blasters have no defenses. To make up for it, they need offense that can mitigate damage in the process of defeating enemies.

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Neither does the melee ATs when all of their toggles are dropped.

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Irrelevant. Toggle-dropping is getting tweaked in issue 7. Until I7 is on test, we don't know how it's getting tweaked.

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I wish I could remember his name, but do you remember that first video right after CoH went live? The gent and his wife who were proto-blappers, showing just how ungodly effective blapping would be? They nerfed Blaster Melee effects off of that video and the subsequent outcry. They'll do it again if it keeps going the way it's going, too.

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Captain Reno and Captain Usagi, AR/Energy blasters. If you mean the Boom video, that didn't demonstrate anything beyond the fact that you can punch the hell out of grays. They also didn't nerf blaster melee effects off that video, considering that blaster melee powers were buffed fairly soon after the game went live.

The other movie I recall from Captain Reno was him showing of the use of flamethrower + energy manipulation + inspirations to powerlevel himself in Dark Astoria. At best, that nerfed the clumping tendencies of zombies and their weakness to fire.

Captain Reno became very disillusioned with the game later on for reasons I do not clearly recall. It may have been repetitive content, or unsoloable content. I forget now.

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People that defend Blaster's melee attacks always say that there is risk for them going into melee but you have to realize that your melee attack has a status effect on it which makes that risk really low.

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Not all of the melee attacks have status effects, and not all of those that do have status effects have reliable effects. One secondary doesn't have a single melee attack with any kind of status effect at all.

And yes, the status effects do reduce risk. They should make it easier to manage risk. Blasters have no defenses. To make up for it, they need offense that can mitigate damage in the process of defeating enemies.

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Information that may or may not be a side point.

Originally, in Beta, Blasters were supposed to have Melee as their Secondary. This changed after they were determined to be too squishy for melee.

Irony?

In any case, Blaster melee attacks should be stronger than Tanker melee attacks because they are in their secondaries (like Tankers') but are also based upon Blaster 'high' damage rather than Tanker 'medium' damage.

However, Blaster melee damage should be no more than 80% of Scrapper melee due to the Primary > Secondary rule.

That being the case, Blaster secondaries should be strong enough to balance the fact that they do not have Scrapper defenses or hit points.

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That's exactly why blaster attacks do as much damage as they do, and why they should do as much damage as they do.

My scrapper has enough defenses to stand toe-to-toe with just about every boss in the game. My blaster should be able to (assuming balance) use powers from her secondary to defeat those same bosses.

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Convieniently for you the "Nerf Blappers" thread was deleted.

I can however ask kali magdelene to verify the fact that not only did you announce that you hold this fabricated "Melee Community" responsible for nerfing the blaster AT across the board, but you made several posts specifically re-instating that this is indeed your belief.

She was apart of the conversation I was refering to, and will probably remember it quite well based on the nigh illogical and obviously antagonistic quality of your language.


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I'm not really comfortable getting drawn into this.

It might be a good idea for people to take a couple steps back, reconsider what they're saying and why, and then approach the discussion without carrying baggage in from other discussions.

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Since she's not been nominated, am I to assume that Kalimagdalene is not a woman?

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I am indeed a woman.

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Yeah, but you never post.

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Damn your Vulcan logic!

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That's why I said I'd like to see your list. But it boils down to Dark Consumption vs. Siphon Life imo. Personally, I'd take DC over SL any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I still think SL will end up in the Stalker set instead of DC becuase of the AoE damage though, long recharge and great secondary effect or not.

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The AoE damage is the least usable and least defining part of Dark Consumption. If balance decisions are made on the basis that once every 90 seconds or so (slotted up) you can hit up to 10 nearby targets with not-quite-one-shadow punch, then...well, that's just silly. IMO, the damage DC can do hasn't really made much difference balance-wise so far.

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Anyone else but me going Dark Melee/Ninjitsu? Already did DA once and I am definately not looking forward to that again. Sorry Kali, I just don't see it being a great stalker set. Maybe Shadow Dweller can save it but it is lacking that final tier panic button.

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I believe I have pointed out the lack of an actual panic button as a big flaw when compared to other melee defense sets over and over again on the scrapper forum. I would be very happy if the devs were to reassess the set and replace soul transfer with something like Warshade Eclipse.

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NOOOOOOO! I like my my rez!

And with all the status effects that DM/A has, I am fine with it.

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Yeah, it's so much better to die than be able to cap resistances and prevent a defeat.

At SlickRiptide's request,

I was the first poster to hit P10K. I was given the opportunity to choose the name, and selected Forum Cartel due to the meme at the time that a select group of forum posters were able to control dev decisions.

Someone else will have to explain the full origins of the "forum cartel" label, however.

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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.

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Yay. I can't see any reason for it to heal so much less than Reconstruction.

Although I think of the Envoy of Shadows and Baphomet with a boosted Healing Flames and worry just a little.

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Giving Stalkers access to Touch of Fear is a going to be a mistake that, given historic trends, could lead to it being nerfed into uselessness for everyone else. It's essentially a soft Placate against anyone without a Breakfree. The same is true for OG and CoF. Nail them with AS, placate them, Nail them, stun/fear them, go back into Hide and AS them again. The other Dark Melee attacks are of secondary import.

If you keep DM's Brawl Indicies and activation times intact and give them a real Build Up, then you will have overriden the one balance point that Dark Melee had against single targets with respect to other sets.

If you think people don't like Stalkers now, give them this kind of control toolbox and you will get to see what true dislike is. That said, when this hits Test, you can bet your bippie that I am making a DM/DA Stalker.

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Often I agree with you. This time I think you're being overly alarmist.

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Oh, and the self rez... suxx0rs?

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It's no worse than Regen's self rez. It sees more usefulness mainly in groups, though. People tend to look down their noses at self-rezzes because they think they need to automatically make room for Fitness, and they don't even think about just how often even skilled players actually die.

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Wrong. People look down their noses at Soul Transfer because it's sucky for a self-rez.

If I'm solo, I can just hospital and come back. No real gain there, except maybe some time.

If I'm on a team, someone can usually rez me. Some minor gain as it's possible that the rez isn't recharged or no one actually has a rez.

However, it requires enemies to be nearby, and the invincibility period is extremely short. I've used Soul Transfer next to a boss and the boss attacked and defeated me again before the rez animation was even over.

The fact is that a large number of skilled players realize that a self-rez doesn't add all that much capability, and definitely not nearly as much as stamina.

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Anyone else but me going Dark Melee/Ninjitsu? Already did DA once and I am definately not looking forward to that again. Sorry Kali, I just don't see it being a great stalker set. Maybe Shadow Dweller can save it but it is lacking that final tier panic button.

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I believe I have pointed out the lack of an actual panic button as a big flaw when compared to other melee defense sets over and over again on the scrapper forum. I would be very happy if the devs were to reassess the set and replace soul transfer with something like Warshade Eclipse.

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Dark melees Shadow Maul will be the cause of 90% of stalker deaths in game. horribly long time for pretty much a squishy to stand still.

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I doubt it.

I had the Sands of Mu on my blaster and used it as often as I could, often against three targets at a time. The animation time never caused defeat.

And stalkers squishy? Uh huh. While they don't have scrapper hit points, they have scrapper defenses and status protection. I think you need to not have those to be an honest squishy.

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I think your going to be right. I would have rather seen Shadow Maul get replaced with a faster cone power but I think they will leave it as is.

I can also see them moving Midnight Grasp up and dropping Dark Consumption into the level 32 spot. Seriously.

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Yeah, although they tend to move attacks earlier for brutes before they consider it for stalkers.

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Shadow Punch
Smite
Shadow Maul
Assassin Strike
Build Up
Placate
Touch of Fear
Dark Consumption
Midnight Grasp


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I hope it's close to that but

Shadow Punch
Smite
Siphon Life
Assassin Strike
Build Up
Placate
Touch of Fear
Dark Consumption
Midnight Grasp

instead.. the root time for shadowmaul in melee would be deadly for someone like a stalker making the attack nigh useless even with it's cone. It works on tougher classes cause they can survive the aggro. Siphon life though is a decent heal comes off decently fast and can be used as an attack if thats what you want it for instead.

I don't see OG as counter productive because it's easy to use after you get the aggro to stun the minions. Also isn't its self damage based on your max hp so it won't damage the stalker as much? Stalkers already have quite a few stunning attacks in MA and EA so the mag stacking would be useful when things look bad.

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Well, if you really want Dark Melee to unquestionably be the weakest stalker primary, this is the route to take.

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You can't compare CoF/OG with Soul Drain and treat them as even remotely similar powers.

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I see your point... I just don't see how they can be all that useful for a DA Stalker if you can only use them when not Hidden.

With DA being RES based it's already starting off at a disadvantage. I was hoping that DA would get a some of the tricks that Ninjitsu gets (especially in absense of an Eludeish copy).

At least Regen will no longer be the most gimp of the Stalker secondaries.

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I doubt it will be gimp anymore than regen is gimp. However, I am disappointed that they're not giving DA the ability to stack stealth within the secondary. That would've really distinguished it from the other sets.

I'd rather not see DA get the same tricks as Ninjitsu.

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Shadow Punch
Smite
Shadow Maul
Assassin Strike
Build Up
Placate
Touch of Fear
Dark Consumption
Midnight Grasp

Just a guess.

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That's what I'd like to see, but I bet they'll leave in Siphon Life and take out Dark Consumption since DC does medium damage in an AoE. The AoE damage powers were the ones to go in the other sets (Spin, Dragon Tail, Whirling Hands, Lotus Drops and Spine Burst(?)).

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It also has a 180 second recharge and has a function similar to Energy Drain. This really hinders its use as a damage AoE (despite what people may think about the power).