BafflingBeerMan
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Quote:Exactly.Originally Posted by Defenestrator
But I think that's what Hurley was trying to tell him. "You do bad things because people tell you you're bad, so you believe you're bad. But you're really a good person and I believe in you." The irony to all of this was Sayid's "awakening" happened by Hurley introducing him to a bad situation.
But while Hurley brought him to a bad situation, Hurley did not ask Sayid to do anything. Much like the death of Sayid, in the sideways verse, ultimately Sayid volunteered to do the right thing. His instinct was proven to be one that helps, not one that fights, torturers, or otherwise kills. -
Quote:Sayid was constantly putting himself into situations where he would be easily manipulated by events or people into becoming bad: his partnership with Ben, his plan with Jack for take care of Michael that led to Sun and Jin becoming involved, meeting Mikhail for the first time, etc. It is weird, people turned to Sayid to do the uncivilized things because he seemed so civil about it!Originally Posted by SuperLexxx
I had never really thought about Nadia being the 'reminder of his bad self', but that really brings to mind what Hurley said to him in the car. Wasn't it something like, "I believe you're good, but everyone keeps saying you're bad so you believe them. But I believe in you." Or something to that effect. Very powerful words.
Now, whether or not the Island was egging him on is one thing, but Sayid never really turned away from the situations that caused him to think himself as bad. -
Also, Dharma was funded in part by Alvar Hanso, whose great-great grandfather, Magnus Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock.
And you can also say that the Dharma folk were brought to the Island by Jacob to be potential candidates (Horace's name was on cave wall). How Jacob brought people to the Island was varied: shipwrecks, plane crashes, etc. Perhaps the only way to bring all those people to the Island to be "judged," as it were, was to plant the seed of Dharma in the DeGroots' minds. -
The Others, to the Dharma folk were natives to the Island, and were called by Dharma, The Hostiles. Think to the British colonization of the Americas. At first, they tried to help the Native Americans here, but eventually, it turned to hostilities and war. Dharma vs The Others/Hostiles is that in a nutshell.
And, like I said, Dharma was hippy scientists. They were trying to understand humanity. They were working on something called the Valenzetti Equation which was supposed to predict the end of the world. The Pearl Station, Station 5, was their version of a Skinner Box. It was meant to test how man would react to man if one side was removed from the other. If we were made "gods" in the sense that we could observe all, how would we react? Remember, those stationed at the Pearl would eventually return to the Barracks, where undoubtedly, they would interact with the very subjects they were observing. The Pearl Station was meant to test how its runner would react to being isolated and observing research, not how they see what other people are doing.
The other research stations (save for The Swan), are meant to aid in finding the fundamental truths about the universe and the Island. Including human behavoir. -
About Sayid and Shannon, how do you all feel that Sayid's "true love" was Shannon not Nadia?
I think it makes some sense, because as much as Sayid loved Nadia, she was always a reminder of who he was. Not only did she remind him of his torturer days, but she was tortured by Sayid himself. Their love was always doomed, as it would always cause Sayid to revert to his torturer ways/bad impulses. We saw it when he betrayed his best friend in Sydney to get some info on Nadia. We saw it when, after Nadia's death, Sayid worked for Ben. We even saw it in limbo, when Sayid killed Keamy and crew to protect Nadia.
Sayid and Shannon, on the other hand, allowed each other to start anew. Sayid could be romantic without his past over his shoulder. Shannon could be accepted. They were truly each other's clean slate. -
Wait, I just remembered something. Did Soul Sister Kate tell Jack that she missed him, or was it vice versa? Because that is another subtle clue that she lived a long time after leaving the Island that some people might not be picking up on.
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Quote:I was thinking that as well.Originally Posted by NiVra
I think it would have helped tremendously if they showed how people "died" off the island. Maybe, perhaps in their "awakenings" as well? From the people i've talked to about the show this morning, very few believe that they all made it off the island alive.
Though it may have been stepping on Six Feet Under's finale, which did something similar to that. -
Quote:I am trying to find a screencap of that stinger.Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Some great stuff and some interesting answers to questions, but I think they really missed something.
When talking about the credit/crash site image I think they may have missed the hint/meaning in that there were no bodies on the beach (i.e. there were survivors) therefore you realize that what happened on the island did in fact happen i.e. the Island wasn't purgatory; the flash sideways was. (At least that's what I got out of it)
Some people said they could see production staff graffiti on the plane parts, meaning it was simply an appreciation of the show itself and not meant to be taken into consideration regarding the story.
Other said they saw some of the camp the Losties set up, further proving that the crash really had survivors.
If it means anything to the story, it is that people lived (there were no bodies, as you said) and it was simply meant to parallel the opening of the show, like Jack's death. -
I will also say this, the ending to the sideways universe is affecting me more now then it did initially. I have been thinking about it and it has taken on a personal twist.
You all know what happened with my mom and how she brought me to Lost and her passing the day of the Season 6 premiere. So for the show that we both loved to end on the note that in the next plane of existance, the people who had the greatest impact on you and who you had the greatest impact on greeting you seemed to be speaking to me. Not only was there a philosophical point on Lost that I believed in long before the show, but now, more than ever, I wanted to hear it.
Dang it, Lost, you got me again! -
I think the finale definitely is driving me to watch "Happily Ever After" again. And maybe even "Flashes Before Your Eyes." Desmond actually "dies" while in the electromagnetic field? It may explain so much, especially about Mrs. Hawking/Widmore.
She was clearly awakened in the sideways story. And it appears once you are awakened, you not only know what happened on the Island, but you intristinctly know what the sideways universe is. That is why Mrs. Hawking/Widmore knows so much, at least in HEA. Also, being awakened doesn't mean you are ready to crossover, as it were.
Now, in FBYE, perhaps the same thing happened. But instead of it being a group limbo, it was Desmond's personal limbo, or one for those who have lived on the Island for a while. Mrs. Hawking is aware and is trying to keep Desmond "asleep" by keeping what he remembers to be true to be true. His rememberance of his past is not the future leaking in, but his life.
Now, this still means that Desmond is a time-traveler, as seen in The Constant. He still becomes Time Traveling BFF with Faraday (which is what concerns Mrs. Hawking). It is just in FBYE, he is experiencing the other state for the first time.
Of course, perhaps this state is created by Hugo, as the ultimate way to take care of his friends, which throws my theory slightly off. -
Quote:It is kinda funny. I believe in the podcast interview with Bill Simmons, Carlton Cuse mentioned how he was surprised about how many people actually wanted him and Damon to appear on their shows. He said they are unattractive writers, why would anyone want to see them?Originally Posted by MentalMaden
I'm going to say it. I'm getting a bit tired of Lindelof and Cuse trying to be celebrities and comedians. One funny little skit is ok, but they've really overdone it these last few months. Anytime they are interviewed there has to be some silly schtick, any show with skits they'll do something all "ironic" or ridiculous. Stick to writing boys, leave the acting and joking to the professionals and create us a new show already.
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Quote:Season 5, all the Dharma stuff you can imagine.Originally Posted by minago
i watched the pilot of the show and that's it and maybe a couple of other episodes ....after reading the ending i'm confused .
this is what i got from the wiki far as the last episode.
mmm hmm yup hmm ok ah ha brilliant ! .......oh wait no i don't care about the above .
what i really would like to know did they ever explain the "Dharma initiative" stuff i remember reading a long time ago all the complex little plot elements involving that "research station " plotline involving "gasp" we found the chicken room!!!
and we need to press a button every 24hours or we blow up!!! ... ,oh my it's a shame ....then next week "oh my goodness" we found a "squirrel room" and we need to write notes about our feelings and thoughts and put them in this mail slot which leads to a big pile of trash outside.
so yeah did they ever explain that dharma initiative mess ,i'm looking but i don't see anything.
from what i'm reading in the wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DHARMA_Initiative
it seems like one of those conveniently placed subplots in mystery's that in hindsight added nothing and was only implemented to throw the reader off and was not relevant to the story in the least .
i hope i'm reading that wrong and the "dharma initiative" was explained and was relevant to this purgatory well of furies business.
Basically, the Initiative was another group of people brought to the Island. They were hippie scientists, turned a bit of mad scientist, and they built hatches on the Island to study it.
Like The Black Rock, like Rousseau and her team, they weren't going to explain the mythology of the Island, they were the mythology, showing us how people come to the Island and some exploit it (which was touched upon as a theme in an episode this year).
The purgatory/well of furies is only relevant to the main cast, the survivors of 815 (more or less). The Well of Furies were for those deemed worthy, which was a few of the 815 survivors, finally and the purgatory was a human construct for lost souls and not specific to any one group (since Ben and Desmond were a part of it, you can't say it was only 815 survivors) -
A lot of the argument over this episode I am reading on other threads is the whole character vs. mythology aspect of the finale. In that, we never really got any answers to the big (in their mind) mythological questions in this episode. Especially upset are the people who admit watching the show for its sci-fi, mystery aspect.
It is understandable that those people feel that way, but the show has always been about the characters. We don't get our first real glimpse into the mythology of the show until an hour or so into the pilot. We get Locke's paralyzation and recovery after and Christiangeist, but these were framed as an impact on the character and a way to color their behavor. The show isn't about the mysteries or the time-travel, it is about how these characters react to those mysteries. I should also add a lot of the talk about FlashForward and V I have said something similar: a lot of these "mystery" show/serials love to make it about the questions than those who are around those questions and I think that ultimately dooms them.
Now, I am a big fan of the mythology of the show. Loved to dive into Dharma. I also got excited when an answer was given. But I also love the characters, love it when they would get their episode and just watch what made them tick (or in the case of the FF, what will make them tick). And the writers have always made it clear that the characters come first.
In the end, to say the show should have ended with a wrap up of mysteries and not of the characters is a bit misplaced. The show started with survivors trying to survive. It should end with those survivors. -
Quote:I enjoyed them.Originally Posted by Talia_Rayvyn
Talia is grumpy about those 'alternate endings' on Jimmy Kimmel.
Though I enjoyed the first one only cause I watch the show they were making the joke out of.
Though nothing beats Sawyer/Desmond in Locke's casket! -
Good to see Jeremy Davies be as nerdy and awkward in real life as he was on the show.
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Quote:Hmmm, good interpretation. Can't argue that.Originally Posted by Dark One
Umm...I see it differently. The entire series was a flashback. To me, the part in the church was the Now, not that "Now" means a whole helluva lot in that timeframe.
I have also been calling it the "Titanic" ending. Y'know, when Rose dies and she becomes young again and see Jack (heh) and the rest of the people on the Titanic?Quote:Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time
Oh I see so everybody basically got a preview of where they are all going to end up together. But each individual person will take their own path getting their.
Except that ending was stretched out to 17 hours, and we (and the characters) didn't know that was going on until near the end. -
Quote:Yes and no. That's how the subplot of this season ended, but not how the narrative ended. I think that is what is polarizing people.Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time
Wow. I haven't watched Lost so I'll admit I'm not getting most of what everyone is saying. But if I have picked up anything from your conversations then it sounds like to me that the writers of Lost ripped off the ending to Ashes to Ashes LOL
On Friday of this week the series Ashes to Ashes ended on the BBC. Ashes to Ashes was the continuation of the original series Life on Mars with John Simm and Philip Glenister. The last episode this Friday finally 'revealed all' about Gene Hunt (Philip Glenister's character) and just what was going on with the show. The series of AtA started with a police woman Alexis Drake being shot in the head by a criminal and when she woke up she was in 1980. Inside her dream world was Gene Hunt who was also in the dream world of Life on Mars when policeman Sam Tyler was hit by a car and woke up in 1973. Both series revolved around the main characters Sam in Life on Mars and Alex in Ashes to Ashes finding out where or when they were and how to get home.
This Friday we learned that the entire world both Sam and Alex inhabited was the constructed dream world/reality of the secondary main character Gene Hunt. Gene was a police officer who died back in the 60's but refused to cross over to the next life. He felt that he could help others that were like him that were either angry with their passing or had unfinished business that prevented them from passing over to the afterlife. So Gene fashioned himself a new persona and took it upon himself to shepherd any police officers whether they be male or female in this world he constructed. He would let them play out a new life in his reality/limbo and when they got the confidence they needed or worked through the unfinished business that was holding them back then he would let them move on to the next world. Unfortunately if there is an angel in that world there is also a devil. In Life on Mars it was the 'Test Pattern Girl' and in Ashes to Ashes it was a rival Internal Affairs officer named Jim Keats. He tried to break their confidence in Gene and if he could tempt them to join his 'department' which was reached by a long elevator shaft heading DOWN with faint screams of agony ever so subtly just out of earshot.
But at the end of the episode when Gene won out and defeated Jim Keats and redeemed his team's faith in him the surprises weren't done. It turned out that Alex wasn't the only person in that reality that was from the real world. Her colleagues that worked with her in the CID (Criminal Investigations Department) were also souls of police officers that had died in life and been sent to Gene's reality. The problem was they had been there so long they had forgotten why they were there. Alex helped them with Gene to remember and in the end they finally left and 'crossed over' to the next plane. But wait it got EVEN better. Come to find out Alex who thought she was in a coma from the bullet and could go home to her little girl after she helped Gene and the rest of the team had her own truth to face up to. Come to find out the WHOLE time from the start of the show she wasn't in a coma... she was dead too. She could never go back home and be with her daughter which is what she was fighting for the whole 3 years because she was stone cold dead. Gene was reluctantly forced to get her to accept the truth and she decided to move on to to the afterlife.
Now. BBM and the rest of you guys and gals... does this sound at all familiar with the way Lost ended or somewhat?
In essence, the subplot (the flash-sideways) was just another form of a flash-forward. We were seeing what will happen (from the vantage point of the main narrative). Eventually all these characters will go to that place and be reunited. But they all will lead different lives until that point. -
Quote:It just started here. A full hour for news.Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Anyone else not getting to watch the Jimmy Kimmel show right now? They've got two episodes of Two and a Half Men on right now where I'm at (central time)
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Quote:I have been thinking of that.Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
OK, so if the Sideways world was just where everybody met up to go to the afterlife ... then where the frack did David come from? Jack and Juliet never hooked up in the Real world?
Obivously, that plane of existance allows for its users to construct some of its world. So Jac'ks father issues manifest in David, he did have romantic feelings towards Juliet, so that pops up as his ex-wife, etc.
Remember how, in the Matrix, the machines tried to perfect the world and human rejected it? So they created the same exact world as we live in now? The sideways was like that, except the humans created it themselves, in a way. -
Quote:Haha, I noticed that in the coffin room. I was like, "Oh, that's cool." Then it hit the fan!Originally Posted by MentalMaden
The various different religious symbols and statues suggested an "every persons" "great beyond" whatever you want to call it.
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Quote:While that was the ending of the main characters lives, it was not the ending of the narrative of the show. The narrative ended when Jack put the cork back in and the Ajira flight took off.Originally Posted by Night_Caster
This, but I feel that the writers hit a road block and could never come up with a good explanation about the island and took this path for the storyline and they did all right. Could not get any more FINAL then death and moving on but kind of lame now I think about it because...EVERYONE DIES no real shock, and a lazy way to end a show next to a wake up/dream experience. Really, that could be a ending for all shows from here on out, "What happened to everyone...they died".
Also, they did not all die during the crash. Sideways Ben and Hurley's conversation, the fact that their "souls" remembered each other and their interaction on the Island, Christian's speech, all indicate what happened, happened. The "flashback," as it were, to the wreckage was just to show us what united these people. Notice there were no dead bodies. If they really wanted to pound the point home that every died in the crash, they would have intercut the reunion scene in the church with the camera viewing their bodies on the beach. That, plus the fact it was more a stinger, was meant to bring closure. -
Quote:WOW. Just WOW.Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
No, Christian said that everyone dies eventually. Some died before him, some long after. Plus, Hurley said to Ben "You were a great number 2." and Ben said he was an amazing number 1, which means they were Jacob and Richarding it up for awhile.
It started to dawn on me when sideways Locke and Ben had their conversation and then when Hurley and Ben talked in the past tense, my eyes grew wide: "They flipped the script and the sideways reality was purgatory!"
It may also explain who was and wasn't ready: Michael still has issues, so he couldn't go (and was unseen in the sideways reality). Ana-Lucia too.
All the On-Island stuff? Awesome. I will let it all digest for like, um, five minutes?
Ben clearly feels he isn't ready to move on yet. That's why Hurley gave him the pep talk. He is still atoning in his mind.Quote:Originally Posted by Talia_Rayvyn
That was a sad ending...and also confusing.
What did it mean when Ben said he wasn't going to go inside is the main thing that bothers me. -
Quote:Yay!Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
T minus 5 minutes!
Debating whether to come back and post during the commercials.
I may just concentrate solely on the episode...
Decisions, decisions! -
Quote:I am telling you, in 20 years there will be Lost: The Next Generation! I am not worriedOriginally Posted by Lord_of_Time
I almost have survivor's guilt. My show is still on while BBM has a show ending and I doubt Locke is going to regenerate and show up at the end and ask everyone if their ready for round 2 on the island
