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I think this will be my last post in this thread.
I've learned two things here:
1. The risk vs reward as no value for PvPers if they insist on hitting the weakened enemies.
And don't give me the council in striga crap, they are AI and they are coded to attack.
Players have common sense and chose to attack weakened players (would they even bother hitting a NPC enemy if his health was down to 5% ? no, because there is no xp for this)
2. PvPers don't want other players in "their" zones. So, instead of asking no pvpers not to come, why don't they ask developpers to not put any PvE content in their precious zone ?
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Maybe a better lesson is in PvP as a whole, instead of neatly defined conflicts.
Lesson 1. PvP is usually quick and messy. PvP conflicts are usually over in a fraction fo the time of a PvE conflict, and often begin and end with little warning.
Lesson 2. PvP in zones with PvE objectives should always be viewed as PvP objectives. The PvE foes are tools and obstacles for the PvP fight. Use them, avoid them, get used by them... just be aware of them.
Lesson 3. Cowardice isn't Griefing. It's exactly that. Cowardice. It's siezing an opportunity and using it. If I wanted honorable duels I'll base raid or go to the arena. If I want true PvP then the zones are the best place.
Lesson 4. Don't travel alone. While you can solo the PvE content it's much more dangerous due to it being in a PvP zone. You want to talk Risk vs. Reward? Well, PvP reward is all about the taking down the character of another player. Overcoming the risk is usually reward in and of itself. If you want the PvE rewards without the PvP risk then you're likely going to have to find help. If you go in a group a lone stalker likely wouldn't attack (too risky). If you go in alone then you're bait.
Lesson 5. Be aware of your environment. Ask yourself: Would a Stalker be able to stealth attack me here? if the answer is 'yes' then start moving. If the answer is 'no' then start looking for the stalker.
Lesson 6. Honorable combat does happen. This should not be expected, however.
Lesson 7. Your lesson 1 is flawed largely because there is no xp for a PvP kill.
Lesson 8. Your lesson 2 is flawed because it assumes egocentricity. Instead of asking for no PvE content it is equally valid to say that a non-pvp'er must assume risk of pvp for that pve content. Like almost all content it is completely optional. No story arcs go into a PvP zone unless they start there. Your choice to go into a PvP zone, even if for the PvE content, denotes consent to PvP. It's not that PvP'ers don't want non-PvP'ers in zone (quite the opposite). It's that they don't want people coming into a PvP zone and complaining when they got a spoon full of PvP content while there.
Lesson 9. Griefing is never acceptable. Some people, however, have really thin skin and these people should not be coddled. Should griefing be strictly defined it will never be restrictive enough for some, or open enough for others. A general description is often better.
Lesson 10. Difficulty. PvP zones are generally an order of magnitude more difficult than PvE zones as unplanned combat is not only a possibility but also a likelyhood. Free For All zones an order above this because the attacker can be hero or villain and tactics have to take into account 10 AT's instead of only 5.
Lesson 11. Higher risk should entail higher reward. The reward in this case is accomplishment in the face of real adversity. Beating AI for a reward is reward one. Beating other players while working for a reward is reward two. No in game numbers for reward two, but a reward it is. Intangible rewards are still rewards. Reward two is where much of the appeal lies in PvP. What's the reward for a game of poker with a friend when there's no money involved? And how is it different from a game of poker with a computer AI when there's no money involved? Some things go beyond simple numbers, and Pvp is most definitely one of them.
Lesson 12. PvP isn't for everyone. If you don't want to PvP then don't go into the PvP zones. Simple, isn't it? If you want to PvE in a PvP zone then acknowledge that you're going into a PvP zone first and foremost. If this is upsetting then don't go into the PvP zone.
Lesson 13. PvP is *rarely* neat, organized battles. an arranged meeting for battle is by far the exception and not the rule. A better rule is: Anywhere, Anytime. Except safe areas, of course. Guerilla combat is the norm.
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-Started PvP in the *early* days of UO (1995) when there were more PvP zones than safe zones and going outside of town was often 'consent to PvP'.
-Still fondly remember my first WoW PvP server venture into contested areas. I was killed within 10 minutes by a rogue. Ganked, really. Hard feelings? Nope. It's part of the game. For what it's worth he /cry'd over my corpse before running off.
-Now CoV/H has PvP. I welcome it, even though I'm not going to be there very often.
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I think you'r missing Purples point, unless I am in which case this will be my point.
In the PVP Zone, if you are killed by a player you acrue no debt, and if you kill a player you gain no exp.
There are PVE enemies in the zone, killing them awards one exp and dying at their hand awards one debt.
If someone is there to PVP their goal should be to kill another player character, thus achieving the much saught after gloating rights.
It is unfortunately possible for someone to do several things which are not what it seems the devs intended, namely:
1. TPing almost dead PC's into the waiting arms of NPC's causing them to die at the NPC's hands and not theirs thus accruing debt for said PC.
2. TPing and PC into the waiting arms of a police drone or arachnos drone causing them to be one-shot killed with no chance of retaliating or knowing who got them (I understand sometimes you don't know anyway but theres a chance you might) once again accruing debt.
3. Waiting until someone is fighting an NPC, hitting them so their almost dead and NOT finishing them off YOURSELF, but letting the NPC finish them so they accrue debt.
I see deliberately causing a character to accfrue debt in a system designed so that PVP does not cause debt as griefing. Doing the above three things in a pvp zone is the same as dropping a teammate off a building into a mob using TP friend in a non PVP zone.
My solution? Make TP Foe not work on PC's using the ingame explanatoin that the teleport devices we wear to send us to and from hospitals cancel out unwanted TP. After all we have to click allow it for friendlies now.
This doesn't cance; out the thrid form of griefing but nothing will.
I also don't think anything that can kill you in one shot (Police Drone) and can't be killed itself should give you debt.
