Auroxis
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Posts
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Quote:No doubt both benefit from extra survivability, but they don't need it. When it comes to having more damage, Elec Armor has a higher ceiling than DA.Originally Posted by Desmodos
Out of context. I was referring to Electric Armor comparable survivability to Dark Armor. For both Dark Armor and Electric Armor, adding recharge and defense is a good idea. Electric Armor needs more defense as it has none, but benefits greatly from adding HP. Dark Armor has minimal use for additional HP. Both builds benefit greatly from recharge which Dark Armor had none.
In other words, the difference only affect focus of the build, not the final out come...which is what John_Printemps has been saying from the onset.
You can go for sets like Obliteration, but you need to make up for the lack of endurance reduction it offers. You can go for sets like Mako's Bite, but that's not really closing the recharge gap between Elec Armor and DA. The reason nothing is preventing you from slotting those sets is because you spent slots on dealing with the endurance issues. An Elec Armor toon can use those same amount of slots to get another set.Quote:There is nothing preventing Dark Armor from choosing those same sets. Touch of Death, Obliteration, and Mako's Bite are popular choices for anyone wanting to build Dark Armor for positional defense. It's done routinely. There is nothing stated here that Electric Armor can do that Dark Armor cannot. -
Quote:No it doesn't. Elec Armor doesn't need to beef up its HP and Defense any more than Dark Armor does. We're talking about damage potential here.
The advantage of extra recharge and easy endurance management allows to Electric Armor to make up it's lack of survivability. While Dark Armor works harder for recharge and endurance, Electric Armor needs to beef up it's HP and Defense.
The same works both ways. There are dozens of ways for Elec Armor to get more recharge and damage, but rely on its endurance management to work, and some of those options actually improve survivability. Here are some examples: the Obliteration PBAoE set, Positron's set, Purple sets, fitting a proc or a recharge enhancement instead of an endurance reduction enhancement, getting the Musculature or Spiritual alpha instead of Cardiac alpha, you can also focus on getting damage bonuses from IO sets instead of getting recovery and recharge(Makos Bite, Touch of Death, Obliteration all increase defense as well as damage).Quote:Their are dozens of ways for a Dark Armor build to resolve it's endurance issues, none of which require sacrificing recharge. In fact, some of those options actually improve global recharge. -
Quote:Originally Posted by John_Printemps
I'm not missing anything. You're not listening. You build a Spines to fire flawless Spine Burst > Throw Spines, if one is */Elec and one is */Da but both end up with the same numbers, then there's still no difference between the two of them other than */Elec got to it without needing to find 20% from somewhere else. Between IO's and Incarnate abilities, you can't cut and dry that one Spines/* is far superior than another, there's far too many ways to answer any issue that one build has versus another.I'm not saying one is vastly superior to the other in damage output, Elec Armor and Dark Armor are quite close. However, the base recharge and endurance management of Elec let you reach higher levels of offense. Simply put, DA needs to spend slots on endurance and recharge to reach Elec's baseline. Elec can spend those same amount of slots to get more offense. Also, Spine Burst and Throw Spines aren't the only AoE's in your arsenal that benefit from recharge. Fire Ball comes to mind.Quote:
You're talking in circles. Try posting a build you consider vastly superior in damage output. I'm having are really hard time believing Lightening Reflexes will have the massive impact you are claiming.
Starting a build war will do this thread no good. -
Quote:You're missing the point. The endurance management lets you fit more offense/defense in your build(instead of building for endurance). You're also completely ignoring the fact that the faster your AoE's cycle the more efficient you are at dealing AoE damage(as long as you don't have a complete attack chain). If it's enough for you, that's great. But don't ignore the numbers.Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Not really. A well managed Spindle (in the endurance department) is no different than a well managed Spintric. There's also only so much recharge you can cram into a power before you're just beating a dead horse. If I make Spine Burst and Throw Spines pop back fast enough that I can bounce from mob to mob with minimal downtime on both, the Spintric just requires 20% less effort to do it, but it can be equally done on both. It just comes down to one being able to do it more easily than the other, which gives you an opportunity to build into other aspects instead. Toemaytoh, Toemahtoh. They're all fundamentally the same toons, they just have different starter-stats to get to the same goal: AoE en Mass.
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Quote:I'm sure if I invested just as much as you did in my Tank then I would be able to out-perform yours in survivability. Heck I might be able to outperform him with my small investment as it is.Originally Posted by Severe
ill put it to the test if you want to.unless your just talking out of your hat again.you see my well built fire tank has been better then every tank in the game.in hard situtations ive outlasted invuls,wp ,elec,dark ,ice and except for granite for clear reasons how do you explain that?... experience?...better build?...or you being wrong?
I'm not at all surprised you've outlasted invulns, wp's and granites in tough situations. Like you said, it's due to experience and a better build. -
Here's an Elec/Elec build I just made. I used my Elec/Fire tanker as a template, so the power selection levels might be a bit off.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Janus Thunderstorm: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Electrical Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Aegis-ResDam(5), ResDam-I(9)
Level 1: Charged Brawl -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mako-Dam%(17)
Level 2: Conductive Shield -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(3), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(5)
Level 4: Lightning Field -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(15), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(19)
Level 6: Static Shield -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(9)
Level 8: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 12: Energize -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(13), Numna-Heal(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(36), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(42), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(34), Winter-ResSlow(37)
Level 16: Jacobs Ladder -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Oblit-%Dam(23), Oblit-Dmg(23), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(25), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Thunder Strike -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(40), Oblit-Dmg(45)
Level 20: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(33), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(33), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(33), Mocking-Rchg(37)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(25), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(31), Aegis-Psi/Status(31)
Level 26: Power Sink -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(45), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(46)
Level 28: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 32: Chain Induction -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(36), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Mako-Acc/Dmg(40)
Level 35: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 38: Lightning Rod -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(43), Oblit-Dmg(46)
Level 41: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Tactics -- GSFC-Build%(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(48), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(48), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(50), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(50), GSFC-ToHit(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Boost
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- QckFt-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(27), P'Shift-EndMod(29)
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1444;709;1418;HEX;| |78DA65935B4F1A5110C7CFC22215B188085E5111BC808210ED7363AA4DDA48A2D5F| |6AD315B3CC22A2E64C156FBD4CFD026ED17E8F57BF4DE34BDA54FED57E8E5BD173A| |3BFFA3DD840DCB6FCE9C99D93933738A87CB41216E9D155AF05CD56834B6360D6B4| |FDABEA251364BBD170DEBA031BE5939B0B6A5DD68D6EC7DBF10220E9BAD65B923AD| |86CCAD5465A9699BA5AD257BBF661FEF166555FEDF33AA50842F5815694BAB993B1| |6026BB55A35B7519772BB9BC5F366B9D234AD729057ABD2A8D32274BC7012A998F5| |C84ADD2CE596EC5293BE5B341A4D691F0D506E197A9F86E84FA357B4BC224F42417| |81618FA22E3D49C70F0D6B1E3A7E5133BACEA28330215C66993D1B30BEC319E9397| |86E81E0DF13CF8885E603C23032F0C74EF7584BD89B03710F688D17BC87841E63E9| |86B3E24A6F27B493B7EEC087F3F09713141F5EF54C69DB36CD507BC22E32EECF8BA| |363991E0067099915C67A4AF303297A0A478DD2881A7FBABC75125BE3052C35E07E| |F286C48D528D4E29D98E09DD82F5E0DFC61A47F33327F191FC825ACBCC230EF8573| |1F0C46E1350DAF39847A4F5E11E515A9B06AC8648CEF027B401519EE33343A42145| |E223AC4B5F092AA5F75A01F2D1A408B463007A3E8D4E819C61BFAEE200F4CCB3378| |1B19DD6564EF30748A37AC5A3EDCC73E892823D5C38891415CB5258E9D34EC3E51E| |C3175A6310C5002E394C47025316AD318BC698CE16BF29A509D9FC8B2EA33A92655| |A04994740A259D4249A750D20C4A9A45493F92D70CBCB4190CCA3C10A69467D5996| |691F25C8491C5992264905303957BC2D1E61F038F188587C003E03EFA4B5E79D58D| |3CC28EE827D78C7EF48855B7A683FDD674756549A521C3B47E728D5B9D3DC23933C| |B6B01E73490AFBA64C3255F73C9DF022717566828E677B76A86553FDCAA14AB7E06| |5C37FD1EE61173318229C9B79D2CD3A629B46916DD1A2F075A68335AA78B505007F| |8072E46EF46| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:End management gives you a lot more than you think. And sure you can build for recharge, but an equally built Elec Armor will have more recharge than you. If you're regularly facing content where you don't need to use your AoE's more than once, then you likely don't need the extra survivability of DA either.Originally Posted by John_Printemps
If you pull for Recharge in either build, you can end up with the same result in either case. A Spindle can get pretty close to keeping Spine Burst and Throw Spines fast enough that bouncing mob to mob you'll be able to fire them off with minimal delay. Spintrics just get the added bonus of having an additional 20% to get there easier. This doesn't discount either one at being a superior damage dealer. One has better end management is all.
Like I said before, it's all about what end result you want to work with. Better mitigation, better damage, or better endurance. The the rest is all just fine print that you can manipulate with IO's.
I understand you have your Spines/DA IO'd and your Spines/Elec at 43. This is probably giving you a skewed vision of things. -
I went with SS/Elec for this, and invested a lot in him. The game almost feels too easy sometimes.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...85FE03B84BD722 -
Quote:A well built Fiery Aura tank will not be as tough as an equally well built Elec Armor tank. I don't think anyone here was basing their numbers off of unslotted/SO'd builds only.Originally Posted by Severe
the part i think everyone is missing is all these numbers are based off unslotted or s.o.'s. your all missing the fact that any of these " sucky" or " lack luster" or "weaker" can be made to be stronger then pretty much any tank.
its all about your build people. if you wanna always talk about just numbers thats fine but really who here even uses just s.o's anymore i mean really. -
Quote:You can't slot any damage procs in OG, and CoF can only have two damage procs which wouldn't give you much. While you can put a lot of procs into Dark Regeneration, you would be better off spending most of the slots on endurance reduction, accuracy, recharge, and heal. Having your AoE's up sooner and having endless amounts of endurance is simply better.Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Eh. I'm a dark fan, so it's hard to convince me about that. Beyond the damage auras (which are the same) dark also gets PBAoE damage in Dark Regen, and it has two more auras that can slot damage procs. Does that overcome the recharge advantage of /Elec? Don't know. I expect they're about the same, but I want to try /Elec now.
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/Elec is superior to /Dark in terms of damage. Both of them have a damage aura, but Elec Armor gives you extra recharge and endurance management.
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I have two Elec Armor characters IO'd out, a Brute and a Tanker. The Tanker has about 1-2 bil invested and the Brute has about 15 bil. No regrets.
I love Elec Armor because of its balance of Offense and Mitigation. Dechs did a good job of listing the strengths of Elec Armor so I have nothing to add except that Elec Armor looks cool. -
Quote:This isn't always the case. Replace a scrapper and a blaster with a defender and a controller and your damage becomes more important than your survivability. Elec Armor still gives you plenty of damage though.Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Here is the thing - they say Fire tanks have more damage - on a GOOD team they don't need your paultry damage. A couple of blasters, some scrappers and you get a taunt off drop a burn patch and everything is dead.
All you need is to survive the alpha. -
Quote:Like I said, if you have Burn in your ST attack chain(many people do) it's better. Foot Stomp isn't a good place to put it because you won't need the -res against those Minions/LT's you'll be using your AoE's for. If you want to put a proc in Foot Stomp put the FF +Recharge.Originally Posted by Galvanize
BA really is not the place to put this, BA ticks way to slow, as for FS yes it hits more targets in a single hit but burn ticks faster than BA and is constantly hitting those 5 targets for way longer resulting in it eventually having more opportunites than either power to proc.
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Quote:Fiery Melee has better DPS than Elec Melee both AoE and ST(ST in particular), though Elec Melee gets more mitigation through KD and drains, and gets the best AoE burst damage(though very late in its career).Originally Posted by _Elektro_
It would seem the Elec/Elec 'appears' superior in every way except AOE damage, and even then he's no slouch.
This was one of the main reasons I went for Elec Armor over Fire Armor(twice). I found Fire Armor's survivability in TF's not enough for my liking.Quote:I still like to team quite a bit, and usually as a tank, actually all of my tanks, typically get called in when a team is having real issues with something. Now when I think of that scenario, the Elec/Elec would seem to fit that role better, no? -
Quote:I'm guessing you're used to the Brute version of Elec Armor which gets Energize at level 28. Tankers get Energize at level 12(they switched Energize and Lightning Reflexes when they ported the set heroside).Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
Fire tankers are less durable than most other tankers, though they're a much smoother ride 1-50. Resistance based, so no unlucky streaks before you can softcap, and with a cheap heal available very early (Dark Regeneration is too expensive to use frequently at low levels, while Energize is quite late in the set for Elec). It even has Consume for some endurance management.
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Quote:Calling any Tanker squishy is a mistake, a better way to say it would be that Fire Armor is the least survivable.Originally Posted by _Elektro_
Would it be safe to say that Fire tanks are probably the squishiest?
Fire Armor gives you the most damage, yes. And Fiery Melee does give you the most AoE damage.Quote:Would it be safe to say Fire tanks (with fire secondary) can do the most damage? The most AOE damage for certain I would imagine?
Elec's ground only KB protection is very rarely an issue.Quote:But where Elec/Elec probably falls behind Fire/Fire is in pure damage output. Both might seem to have issue with Knockback?
Shortly put, Elec Armor is more survivable, and Fire Armor gives you more damage. -
You can use long rooting animation attacks, you just need to know when to time them. That takes experience though.
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Quote:I tested it on my personal build listed below. I added procs to VS and changed to Musculature when checking out the BF-AV DPS, and gaps in the BF-AS-SS-AS chain were accounted for.Originally Posted by Werner
all this exact math is perhaps a bit too exact unless we have specific builds from the OP to compare.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...72C27FFC04E4F9 -
Quote:Yeah It was a stretch to say it only matters in lengthy fights. I was more referring to the fact that DPA can be more important than DPS in shorter fights, which doesn't really relate to the proc discussion.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Can't agree with that. I certainly notice when I kill a boss in 10 seconds rather than 15, and it's certainly a big speed boost overall considering everyone kills bazillions of bosses in their superpowered career.
Can't understand why would someone who believe DPS only matters in lengthy fights would ever build for it, considering the vast majority of the game is fast and quick fights, but hey, YMMV and all that.
The proc will still let you kill some of those bazillion bosses faster(significantly faster than the damage proc), just not as reliably. It's really a YMMV thing. -
Quote:Well, DPS only matters in those lengthy fights anyway, and when it does go off it's more noticeable which for me is a plus.Originally Posted by Nihilii
If it was indeed a 100% chance for a 5% damage buff, I'd agree ; but it's a 5% chance for a 100% damage buff. That means it goes off on average once every ~2 minutes of nonstop attacking, and for you to get the most out of it you have to keep attacking right after it goes off, and not have more than 100% additional damage buff (BF + Assault putting you at around ~300% already) on you.
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Quote:I just checked that, and it seems that it is worth it in this particular instance.Originally Posted by Nihilii
Gaussian proc isn't worth it, a normal damage proc will provide a bigger damage increase.
Edit: Wernerblocked.
The Gaussian proc gives you a 5% damage buff to the AS-SS-AS part of the attack chain. The base damage of that is 304, which makes for about 15 damage gained from the Gaussian proc. A regular damage proc gives you about 14 damage. -
I'd say Aura. Where you'll need the -res the most would be in AV/GM fights, when you won't be using your AoE's that often. If you have Burn in your ST attack chain that changes things, however.
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I'll put my vote in for Spiritual.
Dull Pain, Foot Stomp, KO Blow, Rage, are all powers that shine with high levels of recharge. Spiritual also lets you get away with not taking Hasten and reaching perma DP. -
Quote:In my experience Sonic is a buffing set that gives you lots of time to blast. there is very little active buffing/debuffing involved.Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh
Traps or TA. Let's you play the game and not buff folks every 60 seconds. If you want to have fun, look for powersets that aren't designed to buff others.
Now, I am IN NO WAY saying that those sets are bad or that you can't learn to play them and have fun. I am saying that if your main objective is to have fun "rigth out of the box with little assembly required," play powersets that allow you to blast away or set traps and blast away.