Another_Fan
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Quote:Originally Posted by je_saist
Post Deleted by Moderator_08
ROFL.
Which reality would that be ?
Customers making excuses for companies delivering flawed product ?
Assertions that it is impossible to write good software ?
Assertions that it is impossible to perform basic tests on software before releasing it ?
Its pretty damn obvious that it was decided that live should be the stress test for releases. The terms of the eula make it a no cost option for them. -
Quote:I can't even begin to touch the wrong of this. First Fred Brook's point wasn't that there was "NO WAY", just that there wasn't one single technique. Even in that context, he was speaking of accidental complexity, (Accidental complexity = unintended consequences). He even specifically outlined methods of dealing with essential complexity (Software that deals with intractably difficult to properly analyze or abstract situations) .Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Fine, let me simplify the excuse. Software Development is complex. It is complex enough that in relatively short order any code base becomes so complex that "proper" coverage and regression testing becomes economically unfeasible for most code. That is the simple fact of software life.
Back in 1986, when "640KB was enough for anybody", there was a paper on software development called "No Silver Bullet Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering" by Fred Brooks who was know for "The Mythical Man-Month" the book about software development and project management. The gist of "No Silver Bullet" was "there is no single development, in either technology or management technique, which by itself promises even one order of magnitude [tenfold] improvement within a decade in productivity, in reliability, in simplicity." Short version, software development is extremely hard and unpredictable, there is no silver bullet to kill the werewolf of software development complexity.
So what you are saying here is that the availability of extra resources forces people into producing bad code, and it is nothing that anyone should get upset about when a product you pay for doesn't work.Quote:Now when you combine that with Nathon Myhrvold's (former CTO of Microsoft in the 90s) first law of software "Software always expands to fit whatever container it is stored in" with Moore's Law implies that in a computer technology capabilities grow 60-100x in a decade it means it's a losing battle, software complexity outstrips a developers ability to produce good quality, timely code at a reasonable cost.
Quote:That level of development simply won't fly for $50-70 entertainment software, especially for an MMO. Take to long between releases, people leave. Charge more so you can test thoroughly and it doesn't sell at all making testing moot.
Let me see here. The low volume servers did not have the mapserv problem, the high pop servers did.
The words of the day are "Load Testing"
This software has been out five years and they have no way to put it under load before they release new versions ?
GOOD AD HOMINEM, nice and indirect. You missed things like fascists that demand unachievable results even though that is hinted at in the body of the post.Quote:I could probably continue until I'm blue in the face but I'm sure those who think it's possible to test and produce six sigma software of this size and complexity with a sub $10 million a year budget, the same people who think doctors can diagnose your medical problem with 100% accuracy from a chart of test results or animal rights activists who think product testing can be simulated on computer than use actual rats, bunnies and monkeys will just say that's just an excuse.
Oh and please don't use military software development in the 80s as any kind of paradigm. I have my own fun experiences in that very environment. Producing a working product on time and on budget was always one of many competing objectives and usually not the most important one. What is more the level of bureaucracy in those projects has little if anything to do with software engineering. -
Quote:Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm fairly convinced that those who honestly believe the idea that there's no QA going on don't actually understand game design.
And that additionally, they deliberately ignore people who explain basic game design.
As a tech support person I can generally fix problems when people genuinely don't know the subject material by explaining the problem and the solution to them. To quote Don Wood, Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed.
To use myself as an example, I cannot fix problems where the person deliberately rejects the explanation or simply refuses to accept explanation given. Case in point? I had a client who kept getting a virus infested computer, and on an average of 2 weeks after a full re-install of the operating system, it was full of junk again. The client kept visiting certain... Dutch... sites using Internet Explorer, and even directly telling this client that it was his choice of sites that kept filling up his computer with virus's... he never got it. As soon as Windows was reinstalled, he promptly went right back to the sites, and promptly got a virus filled computer.
Now? What does this little story have to do with this game? Or with this thread? Well, it's the same principle. We've explained to a great extent that game development is complex. Other previous threads have gone into explaining the changes between the developers incremental builds and the development branches of code.
Yet, we still see people who are hung up on the idea that there is no QA, that all Code development is separated that that no scripts or underlying code are linked to each other in any way shape or form, and that there's only one branch of code development that everybody is working on at the same time.
Now, I can't explain this refusal to accept basic facts of game design and how MMO's work. I really can't.
I can however laugh, because the option is crying.
"That Game Development is complex" is commonly called an excuse. Many customers find excuses unacceptable. To take your example, reloading your customers system is clearly inadequate. A filtering system, third party modifications for IE that provide greater security, or providing a virtual machine with a revertable snapshot are all solutions that seem indicated as actual fixes for his difficulty. Perhaps your customer is someone who will continuously accept excuses, and pay for non solutions, most people won't.
Just as another example wiring a national telecom infrastructure is complex and providing high speed digital communications to all locals is complex. This doesn't stop people from switching their ISPs when they do a bad job or are unreliable.
The above does imply an interesting question though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
This right here shows me that you have very little knowledge of the complexity of the issue.
Is it necessarily hard to find a bug like this? No. Can it be? Yes. Very yes.
There's an estimated million lines of code in this game. Probably much, much more nowadays. Trying to find a bug in all of that code can be a pain in the *** to find. And that's assuming that the buggy code is where you might expect it to be. What if it's due to something seemingly unrelated? What if it's a stray bit of code that got misplaced somewhere else? What if the code seems fine, but the bug keeps appearing anyways. What do you do then?
Just assuming that because they know what the symptom is that they can diagnose the problem easily is folly.
Thinks about it,
Thinks again,
Recalls a little bit from the Tao of programming.
" A well written program is its own heaven
A poorly written program is its own hell"
Now admittedly I don't know the details of the inner workings of the game, BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT its pretty damn easy to notice when variables aren't being properly initialized. That happens all over the place and it does not bode well for the underlying quality of the code. You toss in that we keep getting more and more side effect type issues, its not good. -
Quote:Originally Posted by perwira
You both win. Thanks you two and everyone else here for your thoughtful replies to the questions and issues I raised with merging the markets, something I originally supported (and still support, even if I sarcastically said in one post that I didn't support it based on how it was proposed to be done). I do use and play the market on both sides extensively and share your observations, as well.
So, the crux of it is that the red-side population (who use the BM) is too small to support the BM? If the red-side player/character population using the BM was the same size as or larger than the blue-side population using WW, merging of the markets wouldn't be as necessary? I can certainly see how there is a critical mass necessary to make the markets work, without which they are all but useless.
Its not just that the redside market userbase is too small, its that bigger markets in general are better markets. This is something that is so overwhelmingly obvious that it allowed a small organization that was meant to smooth out the Coal and Steel trade to become the E.U. -
Quote:Merging the databases is not that big a deal.Originally Posted by perwira
As much as I like and agree with the idea of the merged market, it may not be as easy as it might seem at first glance. Even after coding changes to merge the markets, the market database(s) would still have to be merged without flaw.
I think a more serious problem is the immediate fallout that would come because of the price disparities, even hundreds of millions of inf apart on some items, between the two sides. Even if we are given a few weeks notice of an impending merge, the player (or at least marketer) reaction would be immediate and in some cases fairly drastic depending on the item and level of disparity.
What if you had already put up an item for sale that would typically sell low on one side but is priced much higher than the other side or vice versa? Would everyone be allowed to retract their bids at some point prior to the merge? What about the inf you had already sunk into items stored in base or on your character, which may be potentially be much worth less in a merged market? Or worth more? Would it be 'fair' either way to either lose or gain simply because of a market merge?
Has anyone looked at whether 1 influence blue-side = 1 infamy red-side in terms of actual purchasing power? I have a notion that they are not equal and merging the market will also have a total-side impact on the value of the inf on that side.
Frankly, as much as I agree with the idea (and perhaps it should have been done this way from the beginning) for merged markets, I don't see the problem with a separate WW and BM. It has not hindered my game play one iota.
You have a 2 lists of bids and 2 lists of offers. When you are done you have single big list. Each character already has a unique identifier every item on the market is associated one way or another with the unique identifier. There is literally zero problems here. Probably one of the easier database merges you will ever see. The only issue how to resolve standing buy and sell orders, the simplest way to do that is just let them resolve. Give people a month or more notice and if they dont act accordingly they dont act accordingly. If you didnt want to risk buying something you shouldnt have bid if you didn't want to sell don't list
Retracting bids can already be done. Delisting can be done at a cost. As to the value/purchasing power is a giant so what.
The exchange for dollars to yen is about 90 ¥ to the dollar. I can get a nice steak in NYC for considerably less in equivalent currency than I can in Tokyo. Does that mean there is a problem with currency exchange ?
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Quote:LOL seeing as I got flamed for coming back to the game after a couple of months away* and asking if it was just me or did the game seem less populous, I'd say take your own damn advice. The game changed as a result of the changes less people are playing and less avidly.Originally Posted by je_saist
The Game Changed. Get Over It.
The people with their heads in the sand and shouting "LALALALA I Don't want to hear you" at the top of their lungs aren't contributing anything.
*It wasn't boredom that drove me away it was disgust at the whole MA kerfuffle. -
That's one heck of a walk.
Might have to raise the rating on the game. -
Any toon with powers that are < strike > gimped < / strike > balanced off of recharge benefits incredibly from the purple sets.
Blasters
AIM
Buildup
Rain of arrows
Full Auto
Drain Psyche
Consume
Ice patch
Etc
Controllers
AOE holds
AOE stuns
Ilusion pets
Shared with defenders
Benumb
Heat Loss
Adrenalin boost
Fulcrum shift
Transference
Accelerate Metabolism
Lingering rad
etc
If you use any of the above purples are great. If you like fighting +con enemies purples are great the extra accuracy is more than great its a must.
EDIT: Just in case you didn't realize blasters solo at the pace of aim and buildup with the exceptions of /devices and Assault Rifle. -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=198111
Well it would certainly contribute to the above.
Just as one more anecdotal data point I have noticed my battle maiden takings to be a bit off. -
Quote:I have seen plenty of pugs do the ITF in less than an hour, I was on a pug that did a masters run in about an hour and a quarter the other night.Originally Posted by UberGuy
For me, anything over an hour is basically a failure.
All it takes is an organizer who makes sure his team is balanced and has a strategy for romulus and the nicti that will work. -
Quote:There were loads of "noob" farm teams that were really enjoying AE. The reward certainly helped. It was great to see team farms were everyone was playing not just one farmer and a bunch of bridges. They also gave people with builds that wouldn't cut it the chance to farm and get into the farming game easily.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Noob, amateur farmers did it for the reward.
The TRUE farmers that found it fun, no longer needed 7 noobs with them to farm come i16.
That's the difference.
BTW the hardcore farmers didn't need 7 noobs with AE, there was no problem setting the team size to whatever you wanted it to be.
Whatever the case AE brought life and vitality to the game. Its a shame all the AE Farming whine threads are gone. Most of them served the purpose of showing just how popular it was. The complaints about the broadcast spam for AE, The complaints that people couldn't get their arcs played, aside from being hilarious just played up the fact that people were using AE overwhelmingly to farm. -
Quote:I know no harm is meant by the above but its about as poor an answer as you can give. The OP is looking for something that will yield superior performance in a particular situation.Originally Posted by Dispari
If you're looking for some kind of secret answer or a build that's totally necessary and designed just for the ITF, you won't find one. There's nothing in this game that's required in anything. Play what you like, rather than what you think the game, or other people, want you to play.
In fact, the ITF has been done by just Blasters and just Stalkers, so I think it's safe to say the only thing that you actually need to take on an ITF is A) players, and B) some damage. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Just to be a pain in the butt: Technically one can never get to step 7 in your plan there. It's impossible.
Step 7 should have been an annotation to step 2 -
There is another thread on this same topic
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=197998
The two of you should get together.
Hopefully you put together something fun and I can start on something new to replace my SS/WP farmer. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Laevateinn
If you want to know what the market would be like without a listing fee, just look at EVE Online's economy, which allows you to change your bid/sales prices for either a nominal fee or no fee at all, I can't remember which.
http://www.nyse.com/
http://www.scottrade.com/?s_kwcid=TC|5689|scott%20trade||S|e|3973199767
7$/trade. -
Quote:Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
As long as some players are wiling to pay higher and higher prices, the prices are bound to rise.
I can guarantee you that some players are cutting in at a price, buying, and re-selling with prices higher than they think they will sell - just to see if they will sell for that much.
I can also guarantee that some players are going to pay whatever it takes to buy a certain item right at that moment regardless of how much it costs.
You say this, as if it is a bad thing or somehow wrong. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
Oh, I didn't know about the family XP reward decrease....Blah. I did know about the Freaks though, it was only a few patches ago..I16 I believe.
At any rate my idea was this:
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1418;720;1440;HEX;| |78DAA594494F535114C7EF1B6AE9F05A4A292D45A08050C607B8724A8CA224559A3| |0C4216A6C6AFB282FC1B6792D463632E90EA78D6374E3D2850B5113FD0A1A44FC04| |7E917A864B1BD7BEB4FF5FDFB9FF3B9D736FD377CFF985583F2D94E0D472B652C94| |C951C67A55C2D39AE74B660E7BCF3563E319D756E5B8E5B0811AB3767E6B3C58295| |37CF38B925CB598D361ACEAE2C2E9A17EDA255B5739550AA08CD56B16A1EFCF0CE9| |64ACBE642D9B2F206FD9CB60B4B55BB5808D15BAA78C7AED8B7EC65BBBA1AA4C88C| |95CD5B4E65C92E779C2FDB39B331533A9BB3402A5558400C563704DF7B86904F4D1| |7CF0149A1BF201C7AC97845687A4DF8AE0014B2BB4444136252F4B4315A195140A7| |E8BBACE05BDF05057BAD19B2134CA27C12D8D2F491E0DD617C2604BE107E8057A30| |E35A1C529D40BD974F108AA6B8442CDFF6003A670B3417373A855E29D8A987C4BD8| |85613D0A8DAD7AD8D022C13329308A4F0EE49B05F40AFF1C639E10582068E033381| |3C2882AB8690342410EE9412F2520E9230CFB290FC306BD8D053839600FB15D0979| |68755D3DB4863D8886790D229CA0900EE6089BB5482BF56F6B668409F1082104BE2| |8FBD428FB62EC8BB1A1050CED72D6769E2ECED8821476C82A75EC52E8F04FC61EA1| |EB17639FB069E09E79A6CE53005D13039249C907E0E996C9ECE6C227B8C6890F8CF| |7847D0553CAC7AA779B52D1F79070E411E331E30921F994F01B7AF5F33951FBB97A| |03125CD2FB30FDA0DCD1E01A6D7F689DB1C1D8E4F26C11D6C13E225731C2776194E| |FC228DF8551BE0B637C17C69E11CA70E04D591993333ECE191FE7CA8C73E2FFC01F| |C784ACCC04677C52E2286759AF5F454DF0C953F9E4A97CF2743E79330D1F7CE011B| |37AFD7E098522A986E7BF9EAFFE83713C735ED005944B285750AEA25C43B98E7203| |E5264A06A5F6ADDE3B780C17741CE504CA49946D34B9F1B2F950FC28064A002588D| |28C1246694389A3BC41A9FD057BF2FB9D| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Are you building that because you enjoy farming or is it more of a way to grind for purples ?
It doesnt look like the most expensive build should come in well under a billion and it should certainly be able to farm the correct enemies. Its not going to be a speedster. Looks like 35-45 seconds a spawn or so when at +0x6
Edit: Assumed technique
1. Stealth in (should get yourself an io in the build)
2. Fulcrum shift
3. Hit RoA point blank
4. Follow up with other AOES
5. Wait for ROA to rech
6. go to 1
7. skip fs if unneeded -
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
Seriously, I don't get what was so fun about AE farms.
They were farms. I mean I used them too, and the farming itself was good. But I didn't find them more intrinsically fun.
They were new, they were different, you could build challenges into them, there was an entirely greater amount of depth to the process. I personally liked to use them to test directions in my builds by putting in allies that would simulate what I would achieve with IOs.
Not all of them were the Midtown Manhattan map.
P.S. After you have done anything in the game 5 or 6 times its a farm. These as noted above were at least new. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Hart
You've also got fewer players benefiting from farming, since padders are no longer needed. Hardcore farmers that can do it all themselves are unlikely to make bad market decisions, such as selling purple recipes that their alts can use. I suspect that a disproportionate number of the purples up for sale came from padders.
Too true, and funny as can be. The people who were screaming bloody murder that farmers were making it impossible for their stories to get run and provided cover for the infamous AE nerfs now get to live with what they wished so hard for. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Money supply rules all. The devs effectively have made the printing press go crazy and made it even more beneficial than before to play your 50s. When you toss in the new exemplaring rules its almost as if they are saying go get yourself power leveled to 50 as fast as possible then do the content.Devs: Referring to the developers of the gameQuote:Originally Posted by Fulmens
... because nobody ever did that before...
Definition, More :
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Quote:Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I'm definitely surprised that prices have not dropped much more sharply. I expected there to be some pent up demand that would take a bit to work itself out, but I think we're way past that point now, yet prices are still up there.
Money supply rules all. The devs effectively have made the printing press go crazy and made it even more beneficial than before to play your 50s. When you toss in the new exemplaring rules its almost as if they are saying go get yourself power leveled to 50 as fast as possible then do the content. -
Quote:Originally Posted by peterpeter
How would your behavior change if there were no market fees? What would the market look like?
The most obvious difference is that we'd have one less influence sink, which would lead directly to inflation.
I think a second, more subtle result would be an increase in perceived supply. The total number of items dropped wouldn't change, but the number which are available for purchase at any given point in time would probably go up.
Right now, I think a lot of people list things for 1 inf, or for 75% of the going rate, because they are afraid of being stuck with an unsold item and having to sacrifice the listing fee if they yank the item off the market and relist it for a lower amount. As a result, a lot of people get to buy things for less than they are really worth, which results in the shelves emptying out pretty quickly.
If we didn't have any fees, I think people would experiment with listing things really high, waiting for a bit, then dropping the price. Of course, that's exactly the sort of behavior the market fee was intended to discourage, but would it really be so bad? If things were listed at too high a price and no one bought them, then at least they'd be on the market. Right now we have a lot of places where there are 0 items for sale. If someone does list an item for too much, then they could relist them lower without penalty, which would make the items more available to people.
I'm not really seeing a downside here, except for the loss of an inf sink. What if the listing fee vanished, but the sales fee became a flat 10% of the sale price? The inf sink would remain, but the artificial downward pricing pressure would vanish. Prices in some areas would go up, but so would supply. I'm happy with that trade-off.
The one big problem is it would make the market manipulation mini game even more popular than it already is. With 0 transaction costs you could buy up all of something leave it up on the market at a high price, once supply starts to come back in or the market gets away from you, delist and relist at your average purchase price plus 1 inf. -
I wonder if the devs "data mined" this they would find anyone who took it and used it on any kind of regular basis
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Quote:Yes it allows for purples the downside is all your pool A drops come in at 49Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
I think I know the answer to this, but will farming -1x8 at 50 allow purple drops, or do you need to move up to 0x8?